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on this episode of skeptic Oh Mike

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Whalen I look at the UFO phenomena and I

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am challenged to either fit it into that

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framework or say that it lies outside of

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that framework so are the aliens god I'm

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sure you could you could cherry-pick the

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the reports and and you could come up

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with that answer that they are got in

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these narratives these UFO abduction

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narratives people come back and they

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tell what they experienced and so one

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person in one narrative you know asks

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the little grey aliens you know they ask

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are you angels and the the grey aliens

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reply yes but not in the way you think

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of angels which is an interesting answer

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but another report someone asks did God

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create the universe and the aliens reply

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no God is creating the universe moment

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by moment I feel like I'm constantly

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confronted within the term I will use is

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something's going on behind the curtain

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you know I'm implying that there's this

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other dimensional realm that they these

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aliens can access that we can barely

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access maybe we can access it through

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death maybe we can access it through

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psychedelics maybe we can access it

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through intense meditation or through

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dream realms you know we can access that

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realm fleetingly stay with us for

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welcome to skeptic oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Aleksic Harrison as you

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just heard from that introduction we're

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going to be talking about the UFO

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phenomena and there I am tiptoeing

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around what we're really going to be

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talking about and that is the reports of

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contact with this other consciousness

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that seems to be connected to the UFO

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phenomena now this is a very challenging

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topic for a lot of folks this is clearly

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a taboo topic you touch it and you're

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immediately ostracized you're

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immediately put in an out group by so

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many people yet

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the connections to the broader question

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of what human consciousness is are

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unavoidable I mean we keep butting up

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against it over and over again whether

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it's in psychedelics or whether it's in

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remote viewing mediumship no matter

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where you go you follow the trail long

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enough and you'll start hearing about

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this connection with these other beings

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so it's a topic I think we really really

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have to delve into to try and get our

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arms around it and understand just

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what's going on

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my interview with Mike Whalen was a

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great start he's a great guest it's a

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long interview let's get right to it

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today we welcome Mike Cleland a skeptic

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Oh in addition to being a pretty amazing

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illustrator Mike is also a blogger in

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podcaster at hidden experience dot

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blogspot where he tackles a number of

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paranormal topics mainly centered around

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alien contact now I know that can be a

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challenging topic for those who haven't

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really studied the phenomena very much

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but I'm really hoping that in this

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skeptical interview we can jump past all

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that first level skeptical silliness if

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you think all this stuff is swamp gas

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and ball lightning then more power to

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you but that's not really what we're

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going to talk about today what I'm

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hoping to get into with Mike is

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questions about this other form of

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consciousness that many many folks seem

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to be coming in contact with

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and then hopefully trying to tie that

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back to so many of the topics that we've

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talked about here on skeptic lob it from

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a viewing or Autobody experience or near

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death experience lucid dreaming

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psychedelics all the rest so with that

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rather long introduction Mike welcome to

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skeptic oh thanks for coming on thanks

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for having me yes well I'm really

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excited to talk to you because I've been

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listening to so many of your interviews

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and not just on a need to be informed

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for the show but because they're great I

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really like them there you have a great

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way on the mic it's very natural very

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personable and very personal you you

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come through with a lot of your own

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personal information that doesn't get in

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the way but just enhances the experience

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and of course you have a lot of great

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guests so it's really a delight to

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listen to and it's a real joy to have

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you on the show well great thanks in in

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the genesis of the whole podcasting

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series has been and I'm not exaggerating

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and I repeat this over and over again is

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it's been therapy for me it's been a

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form of self therapy I feel like I'm

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stepping into waters that are you know

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pretty murky and pretty deep and and in

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a way venturing into the unknown as far

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as I try to sort of untangle some of

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these some of these threads and you know

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I've had some personal experiences and

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the the podcast series and the interview

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stuff has been Oh a way for me to I

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almost want to sit and say like beyond

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the the therapists couch in a way you

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know like I'm using them it's a selfish

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act that the the podcast series that I'm

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doing it's it's in a way for me alone

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you know all that said you know I have

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had similar feedback to you where people

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sort of sort of tap into that in a way

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where they get something out of it I

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guess well that's great and I think it's

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always a selfish act

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little bit whenever we broadcast like

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this I mean one way or another you're

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getting something out of it in order to

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continue doing it and that's good that

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you're taking something out of it let's

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give people a sense for the kind of

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folks you've interviewed and what

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they've brought to your show and what

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you're trying to kind of get at I wanted

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to try and hit on some names that folks

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would immediately recognize so which one

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would you maybe pick out first that

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folks would immediately identify with

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well it's interesting because there's

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almost like two layers to to the

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interview format that I'm doing as far

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as the the folks that have been on there

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I've guess I've got about 70 interviews

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posted at this point some of them are

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short or some of them are two parts and

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such but you know you would certainly

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recognize the name Williams or excuse me

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whitley strieber who have had on and

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I've met him a few times he's obviously

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the fellow who wrote communion and

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published that I think in 1987 sort of

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ushering in the entire of you know UFO

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abduction lore you know the mythology

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and and so many of the puzzle pieces

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that are that are entwined in that you

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know came directly from his that book

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but microwave me let me jump in there

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right off the bat because I can already

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see there's so many areas that we can

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pull apart in pathways we can go down so

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so Whitley as you just mentioned is a

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sci-fi writer he comes out and writes a

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very personal story about his alien

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contact experience it occurs in a huge

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explosion and interest and research into

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alien contact and whether or not folks

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have had real physical contact with

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aliens what that might mean whether it's

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a purely psychic interdimensional

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experience whether it's a physical

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experience whether it's a spiritual

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experience so it really starts this

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whole thing but I really resist the idea

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and I understand where you're going when

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we talk about mythology because there's

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a bunch of other folks that have taken

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the whole UFO contactee experience and

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gone down this path

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of this is somehow mythological in a non

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real sense and pull that apart for us a

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little bit in and where do you stand on

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that oh yeah well it's a can of worms in

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the sense that it's all of that I mean

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that is that it that it you know it can

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frame itself within all of that context

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I like the term mythology just because

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it allows me to step back a little bit

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and not be so tied in to to like I mean

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there's there's very little concrete

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reality that you can grasp in this there

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certainly is physical evidence

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there certainly are multiple witness

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reports of of abduction people you know

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people who get abducted with you know

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with other people so multiple people

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will come back share the same story

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independently the so that term abduction

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it it's I feel like I'm a little stuck

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using that term it's it's I don't like

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it I wish there was a different

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vocabulary word some people will say

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experiencer that has its own baggage

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some people will say contactee that has

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its own implications you know I've you

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know some people will use the direct

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contact will say like the direct contact

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experience you know I'm kind of using

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the the pop culture of term we all know

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which is UFO abduction like let me jump

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in there again and I'm gonna sorry I'm

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gonna oh no this is great this is great

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K because I want to make sure we don't

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jump ahead too far and have people just

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clicking off and going that's it I'm out

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you know because you just blew past the

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first major fulcrum point if you will in

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this whole thing and that's that if we

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take these accounts and we try and

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understand them as best we can in a

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social science kind of way right so we

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have these first-person accounts and

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there's a lot of first-person accounts

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in science in general right there in

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medicine as we talked about so many

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times on this show it's the it's the

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essence of medicine it's the bread and

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butter of Medicine the patient comes in

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what is their first-person account and

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we take first-person accounts from

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number of patients and then we draw

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together what are the symptoms what are

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the factors and then we do a lot of

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stuff beyond that but these first-person

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accounts are very important and we have

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some tools in science by which we can

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establish whether those first-person

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accounts are real in the sense that we

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normally use that word whether they're

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delusional or whether the person is

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confabulating and making something up

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and what I didn't want to blow past is

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by the best evidence we have the

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first-person accounts suggesting that

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large large numbers of people have had a

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contact with another being that they

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understand to be an extraterrestrial

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that evidence is overwhelming and we get

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it from a breadth of different accounts

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and we also get it as you said from

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getting different people who've had a

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shared experience by which they would

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have no way of kind of knowing that

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without having that kind of genuine

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shared experience so can you maybe take

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a couple of minutes and and address that

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that there is some realness to this

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whole thing that we can't dismiss out of

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hand and I want to say I want to back up

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one more time and say this is this is

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important and it's an important

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distinction from that real skeptical

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silliness that I mentioned it you know

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that all that UFO stuff is nonsense I

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mean if you're in that camp you're you

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can't even have a seat at the table but

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I think there's a number of people that

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are willing to accept that yeah there

274
00:12:23,140 --> 00:12:19,610
seems to be these unexplainable objects

275
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in the sky that defy our understanding

276
00:12:27,340 --> 00:12:25,070
of engineering and Aeronautics and all

277
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that I accept that and are still

278
00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:30,170
reluctant to kind of go that next step

279
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:33,710
in terms of wow maybe all these accounts

280
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:37,040
of people having some direct experience

281
00:12:42,610 --> 00:12:39,200
with these beings maybe there's some

282
00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:42,620
reality to that so can you backtrack in

283
00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:45,530
and give us your best guess on where all

284
00:12:51,070 --> 00:12:48,320
that shakes out

285
00:12:53,140 --> 00:12:51,080
you know it's a can of worms it's it's

286
00:12:55,930 --> 00:12:53,150
you know there's that though it's it's a

287
00:12:58,810 --> 00:12:55,940
very muddy subject in the sense that

288
00:13:01,780 --> 00:12:58,820
what you're asking is difficult but what

289
00:13:06,910 --> 00:13:01,790
is happening is that people are

290
00:13:09,670 --> 00:13:06,920
reporting very similar events the events

291
00:13:12,190 --> 00:13:09,680
would be an interaction with some sort

292
00:13:14,350 --> 00:13:12,200
of non-human entity and you said

293
00:13:15,940 --> 00:13:14,360
something like you you actually made a

294
00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:15,950
little leap where you said that the the

295
00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:17,690
you know the aliens would be

296
00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:20,660
extraterrestrial in origin or and and

297
00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:23,510
there's actually very little evidence of

298
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:27,110
that what the term alien when you look

299
00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:30,050
it up in you know in Webster's it

300
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:31,910
doesn't really say anything about you

301
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:33,050
know about a being from another planet

302
00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:35,810
it alien has its own definition and it

303
00:13:42,910 --> 00:13:40,250
means something so different that it

304
00:13:45,010 --> 00:13:42,920
that it is actually unknowable in some

305
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:45,020
way I'm paraphrasing I mean that's not a

306
00:13:48,010 --> 00:13:46,850
direct you know I'm not lifting that

307
00:13:50,950 --> 00:13:48,020
right out of the dictionary in front of

308
00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:50,960
me here but them so what people are

309
00:13:57,310 --> 00:13:54,560
interacting with and also I would also

310
00:13:59,680 --> 00:13:57,320
say I use the term intertwined all the

311
00:14:01,570 --> 00:13:59,690
time what people seem to be somehow

312
00:14:06,190 --> 00:14:01,580
connected or intertwined with is

313
00:14:09,430 --> 00:14:06,200
something very different from from our

314
00:14:13,210 --> 00:14:09,440
normal state of consciousness and our

315
00:14:14,860 --> 00:14:13,220
normal state of interaction that there's

316
00:14:16,750 --> 00:14:14,870
there's things that show up in these

317
00:14:20,380 --> 00:14:16,760
reports over and over and over again

318
00:14:22,180 --> 00:14:20,390
that are so similar and that you know a

319
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:22,190
lot of these things have entered the pop

320
00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:25,850
culture the caricature of what happens

321
00:14:34,330 --> 00:14:28,310
is that someone is asleep in their bed

322
00:14:37,530 --> 00:14:34,340
they are woken by small gray aliens with

323
00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:37,540
big black eyes and then they are somehow

324
00:14:44,110 --> 00:14:42,470
assured into a flying saucer and medical

325
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:44,120
examinations take place and then they

326
00:14:51,250 --> 00:14:48,650
are ushered back to their bed and in the

327
00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:51,260
morning or afterwards they either have

328
00:14:56,170 --> 00:14:53,600
fleeting memories or no memories at all

329
00:14:59,710 --> 00:14:56,180
or memories emerge later or they have

330
00:15:00,700 --> 00:14:59,720
phobias and fears sometimes these these

331
00:15:01,930 --> 00:15:00,710
these memory

332
00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:01,940
are retrieved through hypnotic

333
00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:03,710
regression which is which is a

334
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:08,270
controversial within the UFO community

335
00:15:11,380 --> 00:15:10,250
the UFO research community you know some

336
00:15:14,290 --> 00:15:11,390
people are all for it some people are

337
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:14,300
against it but um that little narrative

338
00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:17,450
that short narrative is certainly part

339
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:19,760
of it that certainly shows up but what

340
00:15:23,470 --> 00:15:21,890
doesn't really make it into the pop

341
00:15:26,890 --> 00:15:23,480
culture and I think partially just

342
00:15:29,490 --> 00:15:26,900
because it can't be easily encapsulated

343
00:15:32,950 --> 00:15:29,500
into a you know a half hour long

344
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:32,960
documentary on late-night cable TV what

345
00:15:39,670 --> 00:15:36,370
is missing is that there is stuff

346
00:15:46,030 --> 00:15:39,680
intertwined with this phenomena that is

347
00:15:49,060 --> 00:15:46,040
so intensely bizarre that that it you

348
00:15:51,130 --> 00:15:49,070
know that it it it forces you to

349
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:51,140
re-examine the definition of reality

350
00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:53,930
itself that the people who have these

351
00:15:58,090 --> 00:15:57,050
experiences in in you know often time

352
00:16:01,090 --> 00:15:58,100
you know there's lots and lots of

353
00:16:02,770 --> 00:16:01,100
experiences that take place in cars at

354
00:16:04,150 --> 00:16:02,780
night with multiple people there's

355
00:16:06,220 --> 00:16:04,160
multiple experiences you know that

356
00:16:08,650 --> 00:16:06,230
basically you know where the abduction

357
00:16:11,830 --> 00:16:08,660
the contact experience takes place in

358
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:11,840
full daylight outside and with all the

359
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:15,770
paranormal elements time seems to change

360
00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:24,010
sound seems to change the the the actual

361
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:26,510
personality of the individual seems to

362
00:16:32,050 --> 00:16:28,880
change they almost shift into an altered

363
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:32,060
state of consciousness as well as an

364
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:37,040
altered as an alternate identity at

365
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:38,570
times I mean these are things that get

366
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:41,450
reported commonly that never show up in

367
00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:43,730
the you know in the mainstream if you

368
00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:45,710
and if in here's where I'm sort of going

369
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:48,710
with my and a very skeptical I'm very

370
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:50,570
cautious to call it research because I

371
00:16:54,250 --> 00:16:52,010
don't even know what if I'm doing this

372
00:16:55,990 --> 00:16:54,260
as research I'm not a scientist I'm not

373
00:16:59,290 --> 00:16:56,000
a sociologist I'm not a psychiatrist

374
00:17:03,870 --> 00:16:59,300
I've got no sort of training in this I

375
00:17:07,199 --> 00:17:03,880
feel like I'm more just you know someone

376
00:17:10,980 --> 00:17:07,209
seeking out answers in the dark and

377
00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:10,990
trying to find patterns and partially um

378
00:17:14,060 --> 00:17:13,310
it's very seductive I mean these stories

379
00:17:17,810 --> 00:17:14,070
are so inch

380
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:17,820
and so bizarre that I'm drawn to them

381
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:21,510
and then at at another level you know

382
00:17:26,990 --> 00:17:24,090
they're very real human experiences

383
00:17:30,740 --> 00:17:27,000
people are some people are traumatized

384
00:17:32,810 --> 00:17:30,750
literally you know like they lose their

385
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:32,820
ability to function that's at one end of

386
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:36,690
the spectrum other people um oh I almost

387
00:17:40,460 --> 00:17:38,610
want to use the term enlightened you

388
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:40,470
know they they have a there's a

389
00:17:48,140 --> 00:17:44,130
spiritual aspect to this that that can

390
00:17:50,660 --> 00:17:48,150
transform people and can you know can

391
00:17:54,740 --> 00:17:50,670
you know alter their life path in a way

392
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:54,750
that that almost would you know I almost

393
00:17:57,620 --> 00:17:56,250
want to say like you know meeting God on

394
00:18:01,670 --> 00:17:57,630
the road to Damascus or something like

395
00:18:04,010 --> 00:18:01,680
that would be the same analogy you know

396
00:18:06,490 --> 00:18:04,020
they they come away and in and then some

397
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:06,500
people you know do take on a sort of

398
00:18:11,810 --> 00:18:09,330
religious zeal to the whole to the whole

399
00:18:13,220 --> 00:18:11,820
aspect I'm trying to you know and then

400
00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:13,230
the researchers that are in the

401
00:18:19,370 --> 00:18:15,510
community that that are trying to make

402
00:18:22,010 --> 00:18:19,380
sense of this all not all but you know

403
00:18:25,340 --> 00:18:22,020
many of them would be let's say guilty

404
00:18:27,260 --> 00:18:25,350
of being pigeon-holed and and only

405
00:18:29,930 --> 00:18:27,270
focusing on a small little little

406
00:18:31,810 --> 00:18:29,940
element of it but these um there's

407
00:18:34,940 --> 00:18:31,820
certainly physical traces that show up

408
00:18:38,030 --> 00:18:34,950
the the people with marks in their

409
00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:38,040
bodies after these experiences or you

410
00:18:43,220 --> 00:18:39,710
know after unknown experiences

411
00:18:45,550 --> 00:18:43,230
poltergeist experiences I cannot tell

412
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:45,560
you how many people I've had direct

413
00:18:52,750 --> 00:18:50,160
conversations with that I'd say in no

414
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:52,760
uncertain terms after this experience

415
00:18:58,490 --> 00:18:56,730
I've become psychic that shows up over

416
00:19:00,890 --> 00:18:58,500
and over and over again that does not

417
00:19:04,550 --> 00:19:00,900
get played out in the main street of the

418
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:04,560
mainstream you know the documentation or

419
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:05,970
the you know I keep on going back to

420
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:09,210
these documentaries that will see on

421
00:19:13,750 --> 00:19:11,520
cable TV you know you don't hear that in

422
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:13,760
the in the documentaries but that is

423
00:19:20,030 --> 00:19:16,170
that is so integral to the overall

424
00:19:24,890 --> 00:19:20,040
phenomenon like a like a a new sense of

425
00:19:27,060 --> 00:19:24,900
of psychic awareness you know a lot of

426
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:27,070
people will actually start working at

427
00:19:32,999 --> 00:19:30,850
psychics now I can't I can't speak to

428
00:19:35,009 --> 00:19:33,009
the authenticity of this but it

429
00:19:36,990 --> 00:19:35,019
certainly is a pattern

430
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:37,000
um I've interacted with some psychics

431
00:19:41,639 --> 00:19:39,490
and done some psychic sessions and

432
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:41,649
actually posted them online which I

433
00:19:46,350 --> 00:19:43,840
thought were quite profound and these

434
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:46,360
were people who have been having you

435
00:19:51,149 --> 00:19:48,130
know what we would call the classic UFO

436
00:19:53,879 --> 00:19:51,159
abduction contact experience you know

437
00:19:54,810 --> 00:19:53,889
that launches us into another I don't

438
00:19:57,930 --> 00:19:54,820
know if we're ever going to be able to

439
00:19:59,399 --> 00:19:57,940
unravel this interview Mike but again in

440
00:20:01,560 --> 00:19:59,409
the spirit of the way that you do it I

441
00:20:03,269 --> 00:20:01,570
did want also comment you know the other

442
00:20:07,799 --> 00:20:03,279
thing I like about your interviews is

443
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:07,809
they have a free-form natural flow to

444
00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:09,610
them that I think is great so we're

445
00:20:13,169 --> 00:20:11,110
going to kind of follow that here we're

446
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:13,179
gonna let this thing go wherever it goes

447
00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:15,490
and we may not get back to even the very

448
00:20:20,399 --> 00:20:17,950
first question that I started with which

449
00:20:22,820 --> 00:20:20,409
is all these very interesting

450
00:20:26,759 --> 00:20:22,830
fascinating guests that you've had on

451
00:20:29,940 --> 00:20:26,769
including Richard Dolan and Nick Redfern

452
00:20:32,669 --> 00:20:29,950
and in peter robbins and many many many

453
00:20:34,860 --> 00:20:32,679
people that folks would probably

454
00:20:37,950 --> 00:20:34,870
recognize that or if they're at all

455
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:37,960
interested in this topic but you just

456
00:20:41,970 --> 00:20:40,480
kind of ventured into a territory that i

457
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:41,980
didn't want to spend some time talking

458
00:20:47,490 --> 00:20:44,559
about and that's the connection between

459
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:47,500
what you're observing within the UFO

460
00:20:52,830 --> 00:20:50,320
community and the contactee community

461
00:20:54,570 --> 00:20:52,840
the connection between that and some of

462
00:20:57,570 --> 00:20:54,580
the things we've observed in this

463
00:21:00,119 --> 00:20:57,580
consciousness community that's

464
00:21:02,820 --> 00:21:00,129
interested in OBEs near-death

465
00:21:04,289 --> 00:21:02,830
experiences and the like and i don't

466
00:21:07,049 --> 00:21:04,299
know if you've listened to this show but

467
00:21:09,539 --> 00:21:07,059
we've done a couple of shows on what's

468
00:21:13,860 --> 00:21:09,549
broadly called spiritually

469
00:21:15,539 --> 00:21:13,870
transformative experiences so NDEs

470
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:15,549
often fall into this category because

471
00:21:21,029 --> 00:21:17,970
people have an NDE and they're

472
00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:21,039
transformed spiritually but there's a

473
00:21:26,159 --> 00:21:23,110
number of other ways that people can

474
00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:26,169
seem to encounter these kind of life

475
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:28,750
experiences that really get to their

476
00:21:34,860 --> 00:21:31,570
core and get to their their spirituality

477
00:21:37,460 --> 00:21:34,870
and shifted in a dramatic way so one is

478
00:21:39,879 --> 00:21:37,470
the Kundalini experience which has been

479
00:21:42,980 --> 00:21:39,889
explored in Hindu

480
00:21:46,909 --> 00:21:42,990
literature and religion for a long time

481
00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:46,919
and people have this tremendous surge of

482
00:21:50,419 --> 00:21:48,240
energy that goes through their body

483
00:21:52,460 --> 00:21:50,429
there's a similar kind of experience

484
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:52,470
that happens often in the Christian

485
00:21:57,049 --> 00:21:54,690
community people in the Catholic Church

486
00:22:00,110 --> 00:21:57,059
will talk about doing the rosary and you

487
00:22:03,919 --> 00:22:00,120
know having this flood of experience and

488
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:03,929
it has a lot of connections with the

489
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:05,610
kind of phenomena that you're talking

490
00:22:09,529 --> 00:22:08,490
about and that's that one increased

491
00:22:11,629 --> 00:22:09,539
psychic ability

492
00:22:13,669 --> 00:22:11,639
sometimes it's dramatic and sometimes

493
00:22:16,460 --> 00:22:13,679
it's very unsettling but people will be

494
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:16,470
very very psychic and a lot of times

495
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:18,210
they'll say that that was for a short

496
00:22:21,919 --> 00:22:20,370
period of time a couple of weeks a

497
00:22:25,159 --> 00:22:21,929
couple of months and then it kind of

498
00:22:27,889 --> 00:22:25,169
closes back down the other connection

499
00:22:30,499 --> 00:22:27,899
with what you're saying is that there's

500
00:22:32,930 --> 00:22:30,509
often a physical shift in people and

501
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:32,940
that that they feel physically changed

502
00:22:38,899 --> 00:22:36,210
as well as spiritually changed so I

503
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:38,909
think there's a lot of these connections

504
00:22:43,580 --> 00:22:41,970
that offer these interesting little

505
00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:43,590
tidbits I don't know how far we want to

506
00:22:47,539 --> 00:22:45,809
go down that path but there there do

507
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:47,549
seem to be these connections between the

508
00:22:54,129 --> 00:22:51,090
two experiences you know yeah I agree

509
00:22:56,299 --> 00:22:54,139
one of the things I ask a lot of folks

510
00:22:58,850 --> 00:22:56,309
you know there's a handful of questions

511
00:23:01,070 --> 00:22:58,860
I try to ask everyone and one of them is

512
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:01,080
in a way what's your definition of a

513
00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:05,250
shaman and you know in and I'm I kind of

514
00:23:09,470 --> 00:23:07,440
know the answer I want to get everyone

515
00:23:12,769 --> 00:23:09,480
gives me a different one but um there

516
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:12,779
seems to be like the shaman isn't

517
00:23:17,210 --> 00:23:14,970
doesn't he doesn't no one volunteers to

518
00:23:20,570 --> 00:23:17,220
be the village shaman it's my

519
00:23:22,999 --> 00:23:20,580
understanding that the the shaman is

520
00:23:25,159 --> 00:23:23,009
picked by the elders within the village

521
00:23:28,909 --> 00:23:25,169
often through some sort of ceremonial

522
00:23:32,090 --> 00:23:28,919
means and then the there's that there's

523
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:32,100
an initiation process with that you know

524
00:23:37,820 --> 00:23:35,250
young person who will take over the role

525
00:23:40,249 --> 00:23:37,830
of the village shaman and that

526
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:40,259
initiation process you know across the

527
00:23:47,529 --> 00:23:42,690
across the board is can be brutal

528
00:23:50,269 --> 00:23:47,539
there's a there's that whether

529
00:23:52,129 --> 00:23:50,279
metaphorically or you know sometimes

530
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:52,139
actually quite literally they will take

531
00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:53,290
the initial

532
00:23:59,760 --> 00:23:56,080
right to the edge of death so there's a

533
00:24:02,910 --> 00:23:59,770
death and rebirth process that that's

534
00:24:05,340 --> 00:24:02,920
that's part of it um you know it's not

535
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:05,350
uncommon for Jax just is coming from

536
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:07,090
reading a lot of Joseph Campbell where

537
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:08,530
they'll take the initiative to the edge

538
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:09,730
of the village they'll take him into a

539
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:12,250
cave they'll you know beat him up to the

540
00:24:18,030 --> 00:24:14,710
edge of death and then they'll they'll

541
00:24:24,020 --> 00:24:18,040
bring him out of the cave I see a lot of

542
00:24:28,170 --> 00:24:24,030
parallels to that and to the the UFO

543
00:24:34,290 --> 00:24:28,180
alien contact experience where on some

544
00:24:37,050 --> 00:24:34,300
level it seems to be an initiatory the

545
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:37,060
framework within it but Mike isn't that

546
00:24:42,990 --> 00:24:40,480
a difficult path to go down I mean when

547
00:24:44,910 --> 00:24:43,000
we start and we encounter the same thing

548
00:24:46,620 --> 00:24:44,920
in the consciousness community and

549
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:46,630
that's that you know we have this

550
00:24:49,710 --> 00:24:48,130
experience the spiritually

551
00:24:52,110 --> 00:24:49,720
transformative experience or in

552
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:52,120
particular the near-death experience

553
00:24:57,360 --> 00:24:54,210
because it's been studied scientifically

554
00:24:59,610 --> 00:24:57,370
medically so thoroughly that we can

555
00:25:02,040 --> 00:24:59,620
really grab onto it and say okay there's

556
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:02,050
some realness by anyway we want to

557
00:25:06,450 --> 00:25:04,210
measure it there's some realness to that

558
00:25:08,940 --> 00:25:06,460
and then there's the next leap into the

559
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:08,950
content of it you know and again here's

560
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:12,010
another parallel the the if you go on to

561
00:25:19,530 --> 00:25:17,050
like Indy ERF dot-org where dr. Jeffrey

562
00:25:20,820 --> 00:25:19,540
long has collected over 2,000 near-death

563
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:20,830
experience accounts and these are

564
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:24,330
self-reported accounts and they're all

565
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:27,010
over the board I mean they're they're

566
00:25:31,230 --> 00:25:29,530
whatever you want to find there you can

567
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:31,240
find there if you want to find this as a

568
00:25:34,830 --> 00:25:32,890
Christian experience you can find that

569
00:25:37,020 --> 00:25:34,840
if you want to find it as a shamanic

570
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:37,030
experience you can probably find that so

571
00:25:42,150 --> 00:25:39,360
again the parallel with the abduction

572
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:42,160
contactee phenomena in that there's a

573
00:25:47,430 --> 00:25:45,250
whole range of different accounts that

574
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:47,440
get written back but I'm really

575
00:25:54,330 --> 00:25:51,490
reluctant to try and find too much of a

576
00:25:56,370 --> 00:25:54,340
pattern there or too much of a narrative

577
00:25:58,890 --> 00:25:56,380
that flows all the way through because

578
00:26:02,580 --> 00:25:58,900
it seems to to break down and just from

579
00:26:04,530 --> 00:26:02,590
our own experience with this stuff we

580
00:26:05,620 --> 00:26:04,540
know that there's a lot of blind alleys

581
00:26:08,950 --> 00:26:05,630
that we're going to

582
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:08,960
down that way so aren't so that's one

583
00:26:13,060 --> 00:26:10,850
part of it and then the other is aren't

584
00:26:17,470 --> 00:26:13,070
a lot of people gonna be deeply offended

585
00:26:19,660 --> 00:26:17,480
by the the notion that someone coming in

586
00:26:22,690 --> 00:26:19,670
and being taken against their will and

587
00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:22,700
having medical experience experiments

588
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:25,120
performed on them is somehow an

589
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:29,330
initiation that they should be grateful

590
00:26:35,110 --> 00:26:32,720
for you know I don't know with if the

591
00:26:37,690 --> 00:26:35,120
initiate in the in the you know the

592
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:37,700
tribal village is grateful for his you

593
00:26:41,740 --> 00:26:39,170
know being dragged off to that cave

594
00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:41,750
yeah you know you the the these

595
00:26:46,810 --> 00:26:44,480
experiences are they're like a Rorschach

596
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:46,820
blot you know what ink blot Rorschach

597
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:49,370
tests where you can peer into them and

598
00:26:53,710 --> 00:26:51,290
sort of glean whatever you want out of

599
00:26:55,900 --> 00:26:53,720
them because they're so all over the map

600
00:26:59,800 --> 00:26:55,910
you know when you when you list it off

601
00:27:01,150 --> 00:26:59,810
the the near-death experience you know

602
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:01,160
all you know how they could be Christian

603
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:03,530
and Hindu and shamanic and and

604
00:27:09,010 --> 00:27:05,510
transformative that you know that you're

605
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:09,020
you're in essence describing the you

606
00:27:12,940 --> 00:27:10,730
know what gets reported by people who

607
00:27:16,060 --> 00:27:12,950
have had the UFO abduction experience

608
00:27:19,630 --> 00:27:16,070
it's it is all over the map I've sat in

609
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:19,640
on you know what would be referred to as

610
00:27:23,620 --> 00:27:21,530
like experience or support groups where

611
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:23,630
a bunch of people sit in a circle in a

612
00:27:26,860 --> 00:27:25,370
closed room and talk about their

613
00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:26,870
experiences and share their experiences

614
00:27:31,180 --> 00:27:28,910
just like any other support group like

615
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:31,190
Alcoholics Anonymous or something but

616
00:27:34,690 --> 00:27:33,290
you know I've seen people actually you

617
00:27:37,420 --> 00:27:34,700
know that the people have had the

618
00:27:38,890 --> 00:27:37,430
angelic experiences get in shouting

619
00:27:41,230 --> 00:27:38,900
matches with the people who've had the

620
00:27:43,060 --> 00:27:41,240
you know the evil doctor experiences on

621
00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:43,070
the medical exam table because they're

622
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:46,310
just on so there's they're on such polar

623
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:49,450
opposites of their of the way they've

624
00:27:55,090 --> 00:27:52,370
experienced this phenomena right okay

625
00:27:57,430 --> 00:27:55,100
hold on then so how do we penetrate that

626
00:27:59,830 --> 00:27:57,440
how do we penetrate that paradox because

627
00:28:01,990 --> 00:27:59,840
that's a little bit frustrating to and

628
00:28:03,970 --> 00:28:02,000
then we're deep into it now folks so if

629
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:03,980
you're still with us hang in there

630
00:28:08,830 --> 00:28:05,570
because it's only going to get deeper

631
00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:08,840
but there is a real point that interests

632
00:28:14,860 --> 00:28:12,710
me fascinates me is don't we have to if

633
00:28:18,250 --> 00:28:14,870
we're going to play this game and the

634
00:28:19,420 --> 00:28:18,260
game is that there is some reality that

635
00:28:21,460 --> 00:28:19,430
Mike and

636
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:21,470
Alex are talking here and we have some

637
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:23,930
kind of shared experience on this earth

638
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:26,330
and that's reality and a lot other

639
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:28,010
people share it we're gonna play that

640
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:29,690
game of trying to figure out what that

641
00:28:34,210 --> 00:28:32,210
reality is and I say it's a game because

642
00:28:38,170 --> 00:28:34,220
there's a whole other school of thought

643
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:38,180
that this is somehow not a reality or

644
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:39,530
some kind of virtual reality or anything

645
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:41,510
like that we could go go down but let's

646
00:28:46,150 --> 00:28:43,310
put that aside for a minute and say

647
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:46,160
there is some reality to it then I get

648
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:48,170
to the point where you just did and and

649
00:28:54,010 --> 00:28:51,650
I feel a need to try in and pin that

650
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:54,020
down a little bit because we have two

651
00:28:58,060 --> 00:28:56,480
opposite ends of the spectrum I don't

652
00:29:00,040 --> 00:28:58,070
know how we can go forward saying well

653
00:29:02,980 --> 00:29:00,050
it could be either it could be or it

654
00:29:06,340 --> 00:29:02,990
could be both we have to sort that out

655
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:06,350
don't we yeah yeah I mean I've in a way

656
00:29:11,950 --> 00:29:09,170
I've sort of given up sorting it out in

657
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:11,960
an in in what I'm what I've been more

658
00:29:17,350 --> 00:29:15,170
interested in is just listening to the

659
00:29:19,420 --> 00:29:17,360
direct human experience the experience

660
00:29:21,030 --> 00:29:19,430
that peoples have had here let me give

661
00:29:27,220 --> 00:29:21,040
an example this is coming from my own

662
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:27,230
experience I had several like four

663
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:31,520
different events where I felt this shift

664
00:29:37,090 --> 00:29:34,850
in consciousness this altered reality is

665
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:37,100
very difficult for me to describe and I

666
00:29:41,470 --> 00:29:39,170
tried to describe it at one of these

667
00:29:43,540 --> 00:29:41,480
support groups this took place at a UFO

668
00:29:47,020 --> 00:29:43,550
conference or there was probably 30

669
00:29:49,090 --> 00:29:47,030
people sitting in this room and I tried

670
00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:49,100
it I said I asked us anyone else felt

671
00:29:57,580 --> 00:29:52,910
this and I described this feeling of

672
00:30:01,300 --> 00:29:57,590
very quiet very vivid colors were

673
00:30:03,070 --> 00:30:01,310
heightened my own thought process was

674
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:03,080
streamlined I didn't have like the

675
00:30:09,370 --> 00:30:07,010
normal chatter in my mind and each of

676
00:30:10,990 --> 00:30:09,380
these four times was under unusual

677
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:11,000
experiences one time was actually in a

678
00:30:17,380 --> 00:30:13,490
dream where I felt it very clearly that

679
00:30:18,610 --> 00:30:17,390
same that same sensation now I asked

680
00:30:20,020 --> 00:30:18,620
about this and a few people raised their

681
00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:20,030
hands and nodded and I've been I said

682
00:30:23,830 --> 00:30:21,830
hey like after the meeting you know I'd

683
00:30:28,330 --> 00:30:23,840
love to just talk with folks so this one

684
00:30:30,370 --> 00:30:28,340
woman came up to me and and I'll also

685
00:30:33,250 --> 00:30:30,380
add that another thing I've been asking

686
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:33,260
folks is what were they thinking about

687
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:37,850
or saying or doing just before they had

688
00:30:41,380 --> 00:30:40,010
these contact experiences or what would

689
00:30:43,180 --> 00:30:41,390
be a synchronicity or some sort of

690
00:30:45,130 --> 00:30:43,190
profound event in their life what were

691
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:45,140
they doing right at the moment when they

692
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:48,530
were having that experience so this

693
00:30:50,980 --> 00:30:49,850
woman came up to me and she said yeah

694
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:50,990
here I'll tell you the story of what

695
00:30:56,350 --> 00:30:53,330
happened to me she said I was in my yard

696
00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:56,360
I went to the pecan tree that I have in

697
00:31:00,100 --> 00:30:58,490
my yard and I picked some pecans and I

698
00:31:05,110 --> 00:31:00,110
held them in my hand and I turned away

699
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:05,120
and and then I turned back to the to

700
00:31:10,180 --> 00:31:07,910
face the tree and when I did that I felt

701
00:31:11,380 --> 00:31:10,190
that same experience that you were

702
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:11,390
trying to describe and we went back and

703
00:31:16,060 --> 00:31:13,370
forth and we agreed that we were you

704
00:31:18,130 --> 00:31:16,070
know using it's very feeble to try to

705
00:31:21,070 --> 00:31:18,140
use vocabulary words to describe what

706
00:31:21,669 --> 00:31:21,080
would be the sort of almost mystical

707
00:31:24,220 --> 00:31:21,679
experience

708
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:24,230
she felt that as she turned to face the

709
00:31:30,610 --> 00:31:27,770
tree after having picked the pecans and

710
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:30,620
then the next thing she knew hours later

711
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:32,809
it was hours later and she was sitting

712
00:31:37,090 --> 00:31:35,210
at her kitchen table just like there was

713
00:31:43,659 --> 00:31:37,100
just a jump cut in the Edit of of

714
00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:43,669
reality and and I and and she had had of

715
00:31:49,419 --> 00:31:46,790
a lifetime of odd experiences including

716
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:49,429
you know seeing little gray aliens in

717
00:31:54,430 --> 00:31:52,730
her bedroom now that I asked her like

718
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:54,440
what were you thinking what we what was

719
00:32:01,360 --> 00:31:56,570
what were you thinking right before you

720
00:32:02,830 --> 00:32:01,370
had that that sensation that experience

721
00:32:05,500 --> 00:32:02,840
that then turned into a missing time

722
00:32:07,270 --> 00:32:05,510
experience and she said oh I picked the

723
00:32:10,180 --> 00:32:07,280
pecans I was walking away from the tree

724
00:32:13,210 --> 00:32:10,190
and I turned around because I wanted to

725
00:32:16,539 --> 00:32:13,220
like formally thank the tree for giving

726
00:32:22,030 --> 00:32:16,549
me the pecans and I thought that detail

727
00:32:26,860 --> 00:32:22,040
like this this almost you know

728
00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:26,870
submitting a submissive to to nature

729
00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:28,910
itself thanking the tree being grateful

730
00:32:36,250 --> 00:32:32,000
for for food I just thought that was

731
00:32:39,909 --> 00:32:36,260
such an intensely prescient detail to

732
00:32:41,140 --> 00:32:39,919
the whole toe to her whole story so I

733
00:32:42,399 --> 00:32:41,150
don't know where to go with that you

734
00:32:44,830 --> 00:32:42,409
know what I mean that's I've seen that

735
00:32:46,090 --> 00:32:44,840
pattern I've seen people tell me stories

736
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:46,100
like that

737
00:32:50,860 --> 00:32:48,410
that adds that extra richness to the

738
00:32:52,690 --> 00:32:50,870
overall phenomena that that you wouldn't

739
00:32:54,190 --> 00:32:52,700
get unless you I don't know unless you

740
00:32:55,570 --> 00:32:54,200
were like me and you really wanted to I

741
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:55,580
mean I'm so I feel like I'm digging and

742
00:32:59,110 --> 00:32:57,679
searching with the kind of compulsion at

743
00:33:00,490 --> 00:32:59,120
this point but I don't think you would

744
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:00,500
have got I would have would not have

745
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:02,570
gotten that detail had I have not

746
00:33:06,669 --> 00:33:03,760
you know pressed her and asked her

747
00:33:08,529 --> 00:33:06,679
that's a great detail although I'm

748
00:33:10,029 --> 00:33:08,539
struck with the same question you are I

749
00:33:12,130 --> 00:33:10,039
mean where do you go with that

750
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:12,140
I think there's almost two lines of

751
00:33:20,860 --> 00:33:16,570
inquiry here one is a personal sense of

752
00:33:22,659 --> 00:33:20,870
connection and deeper spiritual mystic

753
00:33:24,310 --> 00:33:22,669
kind of experience that we get from

754
00:33:26,770 --> 00:33:24,320
these accounts and then there's the

755
00:33:29,529 --> 00:33:26,780
other kind of analytical logical

756
00:33:31,570 --> 00:33:29,539
scientific what does this mean how does

757
00:33:34,779 --> 00:33:31,580
this fit into some larger pattern how do

758
00:33:39,340 --> 00:33:34,789
I sort these and assess the probability

759
00:33:41,020 --> 00:33:39,350
that they mean X versus Y yeah it's I'm

760
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:41,030
not very I'm not much of a linear

761
00:33:45,850 --> 00:33:43,010
thinker I'm very um I'm very much a

762
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:45,860
creative type very much an artist so I

763
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:49,250
feel like I'm approaching this less as a

764
00:33:54,430 --> 00:33:52,370
scientist and more as a poet I know that

765
00:33:57,789 --> 00:33:54,440
sounds really lofty but what it has

766
00:33:59,320 --> 00:33:57,799
allowed me to do is to oh I mean

767
00:34:03,490 --> 00:33:59,330
obviously I'm not going to abandon

768
00:34:05,380 --> 00:34:03,500
logical thinking but I am going to trust

769
00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:05,390
my intuition that's fine I think that's

770
00:34:10,690 --> 00:34:08,000
kind of a problem in our society in

771
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:10,700
general and that we have this idea of of

772
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:14,090
science that it's somehow lies outside

773
00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:17,210
of these other modalities that we have

774
00:34:23,349 --> 00:34:21,200
be it you know a narrative or poetic or

775
00:34:25,599 --> 00:34:23,359
artistic and it doesn't I mean I think

776
00:34:28,599 --> 00:34:25,609
at the end of the day it's the tools we

777
00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:28,609
bring to critically examine all this

778
00:34:32,980 --> 00:34:31,310
stuff so I'd kind of push you on that a

779
00:34:35,889 --> 00:34:32,990
little bit and say I think you're

780
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:35,899
applying the best critical thinking you

781
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:38,210
can I mean I've listened enough - enough

782
00:34:42,879 --> 00:34:40,129
of your interviews where you're getting

783
00:34:44,889 --> 00:34:42,889
to some junction point and you're saying

784
00:34:48,010 --> 00:34:44,899
well it's it's probably we would have to

785
00:34:51,220 --> 00:34:48,020
go this way because the predominance of

786
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:51,230
evidence suggests that that's the way

787
00:34:55,750 --> 00:34:53,450
that the thing is and and also I think

788
00:34:57,340 --> 00:34:55,760
that if we don't close down some of

789
00:34:59,710 --> 00:34:57,350
these doors some of these possibilities

790
00:35:02,230 --> 00:34:59,720
or look at them critically I think

791
00:35:05,290 --> 00:35:02,240
we just wind up in kind of this no-man's

792
00:35:08,230 --> 00:35:05,300
land where we're not really able to move

793
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:08,240
forward because at the end of the day I

794
00:35:12,430 --> 00:35:10,130
mean the way I look at this because we

795
00:35:14,290 --> 00:35:12,440
in the consciousness community it's the

796
00:35:16,599 --> 00:35:14,300
same thing you know and people spin

797
00:35:19,780 --> 00:35:16,609
their wheels forever and look for more

798
00:35:22,089 --> 00:35:19,790
experiments and more you know if they're

799
00:35:23,589 --> 00:35:22,099
if they're logically scientifically

800
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:23,599
oriented they're looking for more

801
00:35:28,990 --> 00:35:25,690
experiments if they're more on the

802
00:35:31,420 --> 00:35:29,000
touchy-feely narrative side then they

803
00:35:33,339 --> 00:35:31,430
want more accounts and at the end of the

804
00:35:34,810 --> 00:35:33,349
day they don't really want to move

805
00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:34,820
forward they just want to stay where

806
00:35:39,460 --> 00:35:36,910
they are that's how it seems to me and

807
00:35:40,780 --> 00:35:39,470
III think instead of that what a lot of

808
00:35:46,510 --> 00:35:40,790
people are doing is they're trying to

809
00:35:48,190 --> 00:35:46,520
make real decisions about this sounds

810
00:35:50,620 --> 00:35:48,200
really big but it's the only way I can

811
00:35:52,870 --> 00:35:50,630
put it how to live their life how to

812
00:35:55,540 --> 00:35:52,880
make life decisions people are trying to

813
00:35:57,339 --> 00:35:55,550
decide you know whether they should go

814
00:35:59,940 --> 00:35:57,349
to church or whether they should not go

815
00:36:02,740 --> 00:35:59,950
to church whether they should be

816
00:36:04,810 --> 00:36:02,750
materially oriented and try and get the

817
00:36:07,359 --> 00:36:04,820
most stuff they can or whether they

818
00:36:09,070 --> 00:36:07,369
should be more community oriented and

819
00:36:11,380 --> 00:36:09,080
try and reach out and connect with other

820
00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:11,390
people there's all these life decisions

821
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:14,510
that at the end of the day are all we

822
00:36:19,420 --> 00:36:17,450
have I mean in terms of who we are and I

823
00:36:22,329 --> 00:36:19,430
think that that the information that

824
00:36:25,359 --> 00:36:22,339
you're digging into can definitely

825
00:36:27,940 --> 00:36:25,369
inform those decisions just like that's

826
00:36:31,450 --> 00:36:27,950
the thing that always kind of amazes me

827
00:36:33,430 --> 00:36:31,460
about consciousness research and your

828
00:36:36,930 --> 00:36:33,440
death experience research is that it's

829
00:36:41,020 --> 00:36:36,940
so directly fundamentally in your face

830
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:41,030
gets at those kind of issues that I just

831
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:43,490
don't understand one people who don't

832
00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:46,010
seem to be very interested in it -

833
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:49,040
people who wind up being somewhat

834
00:36:54,070 --> 00:36:51,730
interested in it and reach some kind of

835
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:54,080
agnostic position well I don't really

836
00:36:57,820 --> 00:36:55,970
know I can't really make a decision on

837
00:37:00,099 --> 00:36:57,830
that of course you can make a decision

838
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:00,109
you make a decision every day in the way

839
00:37:04,950 --> 00:37:03,290
you live your life so aren't those the

840
00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:04,960
same issues that you're dealing with

841
00:37:13,170 --> 00:37:09,140
they are I mean I I had a one of the

842
00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:13,180
things I've been trying to unravel is is

843
00:37:17,049 --> 00:37:15,529
people who have this experience one of

844
00:37:18,789 --> 00:37:17,059
the questions I asked similar to the

845
00:37:20,259 --> 00:37:18,799
shaman question is like hey do you have

846
00:37:23,289 --> 00:37:20,269
any synchronicities in your life and

847
00:37:24,789 --> 00:37:23,299
then the people who have had this kind

848
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:24,799
of contact experience and including the

849
00:37:29,410 --> 00:37:26,450
researchers I'll say when they get when

850
00:37:31,329 --> 00:37:29,420
they get in you know into a case they

851
00:37:33,249 --> 00:37:31,339
will report all kinds of synchronicities

852
00:37:35,349 --> 00:37:33,259
and the people who have the direct

853
00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:35,359
contact experience will just be flooded

854
00:37:40,569 --> 00:37:38,480
with synchronicities and I I felt all

855
00:37:43,029 --> 00:37:40,579
high-and-mighty and I you know I wrote a

856
00:37:45,130 --> 00:37:43,039
little essay on this and and I felt like

857
00:37:47,499 --> 00:37:45,140
I was you know mr. smartypants I was

858
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:47,509
making this connection and then this

859
00:37:50,620 --> 00:37:49,250
close friend of mine you know I said hey

860
00:37:51,549 --> 00:37:50,630
you know UFO abductees have more

861
00:37:53,710 --> 00:37:51,559
experience there are more

862
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:53,720
synchronicities than the the statistical

863
00:37:57,999 --> 00:37:55,730
norm and she kind of rolled her eyes and

864
00:38:00,160 --> 00:37:58,009
she said anyone on a spiritual path will

865
00:38:03,009 --> 00:38:00,170
have more synchronicities which is true

866
00:38:06,670 --> 00:38:03,019
and and it forced me to say like wow

867
00:38:09,339 --> 00:38:06,680
okay so is the I mean there is an

868
00:38:11,499 --> 00:38:09,349
element of this contact experience it's

869
00:38:13,059 --> 00:38:11,509
very I mean there's since there's a

870
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:13,069
new-agey side to it where it's very

871
00:38:21,579 --> 00:38:17,450
obvious that has you know where it feels

872
00:38:24,609 --> 00:38:21,589
like it is a spiritual path and you know

873
00:38:26,529 --> 00:38:24,619
that I think that's the very definition

874
00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:26,539
of a spiritual path in a way is to be

875
00:38:31,150 --> 00:38:28,910
wrestling with these these grander

876
00:38:34,059 --> 00:38:31,160
questions like what does that mean to

877
00:38:35,370 --> 00:38:34,069
you what does the spiritual path mean to

878
00:38:37,870 --> 00:38:35,380
you personally

879
00:38:39,670 --> 00:38:37,880
well I mean I'm one level I'm a

880
00:38:41,049 --> 00:38:39,680
cartoonist so I you know I sort of you

881
00:38:43,170 --> 00:38:41,059
know picture this guy in a robe you know

882
00:38:45,370 --> 00:38:43,180
sort of you know walking in the desert

883
00:38:47,410 --> 00:38:45,380
you really do that's what you really

884
00:38:48,460 --> 00:38:47,420
think well I mean is a cartoon sure I

885
00:38:50,049 --> 00:38:48,470
mean that would be the perfect New

886
00:38:51,849 --> 00:38:50,059
Yorker cartoon of someone on a spiritual

887
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:51,859
path I mean that's that's ridiculously

888
00:38:58,930 --> 00:38:55,730
simplistic but um you know I guess the

889
00:39:00,430 --> 00:38:58,940
spiritual path to me would be asking

890
00:39:02,230 --> 00:39:00,440
questions and it's this I'm just coming

891
00:39:04,990 --> 00:39:02,240
right off my cuff here asking questions

892
00:39:07,990 --> 00:39:05,000
from a heart based you know from a very

893
00:39:09,609 --> 00:39:08,000
heart based place and and and then

894
00:39:10,930 --> 00:39:09,619
seeking the answers you know very

895
00:39:12,670 --> 00:39:10,940
difficult questions I mean you know Who

896
00:39:14,980 --> 00:39:12,680
am I why am I here what's the meaning of

897
00:39:17,079 --> 00:39:14,990
all this okay so what are the answers

898
00:39:19,059 --> 00:39:17,089
you've found well I haven't found any -

899
00:39:22,450 --> 00:39:19,069
the photos you know the big question of

900
00:39:25,089 --> 00:39:22,460
course you have you have I have we

901
00:39:27,070 --> 00:39:25,099
that's how we live our life well ok for

902
00:39:30,730 --> 00:39:27,080
me personally the answers would be

903
00:39:33,850 --> 00:39:30,740
you know the honest make your decisions

904
00:39:35,650 --> 00:39:33,860
from from your heart rather than from

905
00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:35,660
your intellect obviously you know some

906
00:39:38,590 --> 00:39:37,280
decisions it's better to do from your

907
00:39:40,150 --> 00:39:38,600
life but you know like when to get your

908
00:39:41,770 --> 00:39:40,160
you know brakes checked in your car I

909
00:39:43,420 --> 00:39:41,780
think that's a good thing to do from an

910
00:39:45,970 --> 00:39:43,430
intellectual place but you know how you

911
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:45,980
interact with your fellow man you know

912
00:39:52,270 --> 00:39:47,330
should be done from a heart base place

913
00:39:53,830 --> 00:39:52,280
and and then to recognize that in this

914
00:39:58,590 --> 00:39:53,840
is for me and my spiritual path is to

915
00:40:02,700 --> 00:39:58,600
recognize that you know we as humans are

916
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:02,710
fragile so so to come from a place of

917
00:40:09,490 --> 00:40:06,110
compassion when interacting with with

918
00:40:12,930 --> 00:40:09,500
your fellow man okay so at the end of

919
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:12,940
this life experience what happens

920
00:40:19,510 --> 00:40:16,730
there's this other consciousness what is

921
00:40:22,810 --> 00:40:19,520
the nature of that other consciousness -

922
00:40:24,340 --> 00:40:22,820
moi Thomas Jones yeah so um you know I I

923
00:40:28,620 --> 00:40:24,350
just I've listened to your interview

924
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:28,630
with eben Alexander and he painted that

925
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:32,170
incredibly rich almost psychedelic

926
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:34,850
narrative from you know you know

927
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:36,890
butterflies and beautiful angels and

928
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:39,530
turning into dirt and you know so

929
00:40:44,950 --> 00:40:43,310
whatever is going on I I think it's

930
00:40:49,900 --> 00:40:44,960
going to be multi-dimensional in a way

931
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:49,910
that we can't articulate cleanly we

932
00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:52,010
would have to use metaphor or nay or

933
00:40:58,140 --> 00:40:55,310
story or mythology in an attempt to to

934
00:41:02,230 --> 00:40:58,150
define what that with that that

935
00:41:06,790 --> 00:41:02,240
otherworldly grandeur dimensional realm

936
00:41:09,490 --> 00:41:06,800
is beyond the curtain so you know I feel

937
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:09,500
like you know reincarnation sure you

938
00:41:15,100 --> 00:41:11,570
know maybe come back again you know life

939
00:41:17,140 --> 00:41:15,110
review sure that makes perfect sense but

940
00:41:21,010 --> 00:41:17,150
hold on for a second cuz reincarnation

941
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:21,020
and in particular life review suggests

942
00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:23,330
that there's some kind of order to

943
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:26,660
consciousness that it's somehow in some

944
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:28,570
way we might not fully understand

945
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:31,130
hierarchically structured and that

946
00:41:35,590 --> 00:41:33,200
suggests that there's somebody sitting

947
00:41:37,690 --> 00:41:35,600
at the top of the pyramid that's maybe

948
00:41:40,030 --> 00:41:37,700
switching to too much of a literal sense

949
00:41:40,810 --> 00:41:40,040
but if there is an order if there is a

950
00:41:43,660 --> 00:41:40,820
hierarchy

951
00:41:46,330 --> 00:41:43,670
then that suggests God more or less is

952
00:41:48,610 --> 00:41:46,340
that what you're saying god I mean with

953
00:41:50,650 --> 00:41:48,620
the universe God sure I use the term the

954
00:41:55,150 --> 00:41:50,660
universe in replace in it yeah I grew up

955
00:41:59,650 --> 00:41:55,160
in a Lutheran family and and I you know

956
00:42:02,530 --> 00:41:59,660
we was about as low key and and

957
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:02,540
non-intrusive kind of Christianity as

958
00:42:10,170 --> 00:42:04,730
could possibly exist it was the 60s and

959
00:42:13,420 --> 00:42:10,180
guitars and stuff like that so and the

960
00:42:15,630 --> 00:42:13,430
you know so I feel like I'm rebelling a

961
00:42:18,670 --> 00:42:15,640
little bit from that that that

962
00:42:20,170 --> 00:42:18,680
structured Christianity and so I have a

963
00:42:21,940 --> 00:42:20,180
hard time saying god I have a much

964
00:42:24,250 --> 00:42:21,950
easier time saying the universe I'm

965
00:42:25,690 --> 00:42:24,260
saying the same thing I'm just choosing

966
00:42:28,930 --> 00:42:25,700
a different vocabulary word because one

967
00:42:30,790 --> 00:42:28,940
has more baggage for me yeah so here

968
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:30,800
I'll just so back to the UFO thing so

969
00:42:36,070 --> 00:42:33,610
people report this bizarre stuff I don't

970
00:42:37,750 --> 00:42:36,080
know what's true and what's not

971
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:37,760
I mean no one reports the exact same

972
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:40,250
thing one report and I'm paraphrasing

973
00:42:44,050 --> 00:42:41,810
this from memory and I'm probably to get

974
00:42:46,270 --> 00:42:44,060
some details wrong someone said that you

975
00:42:50,170 --> 00:42:46,280
know like Oh on the moon there's this

976
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:50,180
machine and the machine then takes our

977
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:54,290
souls and it you know it uploads them

978
00:42:57,730 --> 00:42:55,850
you know I'm just thinking like you know

979
00:43:00,520 --> 00:42:57,740
how you know I can upload and download

980
00:43:02,410 --> 00:43:00,530
things from one computer to another you

981
00:43:05,050 --> 00:43:02,420
know over the you know the wireless

982
00:43:06,970 --> 00:43:05,060
internet so it uploads the souls after

983
00:43:08,530 --> 00:43:06,980
someone dies it you know puts them

984
00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:08,540
through this formal process and then it

985
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:10,310
just recirculates them right back into

986
00:43:18,370 --> 00:43:14,810
the to the to the you know the the soul

987
00:43:20,050 --> 00:43:18,380
base here on earth now I don't I don't

988
00:43:21,490 --> 00:43:20,060
really think there's a machine up on the

989
00:43:23,710 --> 00:43:21,500
moon that does this but that is what

990
00:43:25,300 --> 00:43:23,720
someone shared in what it felt to me

991
00:43:28,810 --> 00:43:25,310
like I mean they were felt they were

992
00:43:31,300 --> 00:43:28,820
very very earnest in sharing this they

993
00:43:34,330 --> 00:43:31,310
they were they were they but they felt

994
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:34,340
it but you know what it felt like it was

995
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:35,930
you know like well here's the mythology

996
00:43:40,810 --> 00:43:37,850
here's like this this metaphor you know

997
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:40,820
it may not be real and it's it's always

998
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:43,010
to me it's almost more it's more fun to

999
00:43:49,150 --> 00:43:44,810
hear someone share a story that they

1000
00:43:52,930 --> 00:43:49,160
think is real then it is you know to

1001
00:43:54,670 --> 00:43:52,940
sort of ponder it in the abstract but

1002
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:54,680
now here I'll jump to one more

1003
00:44:01,810 --> 00:43:58,880
um dr. Leo sprinkle I think he's 82

1004
00:44:03,070 --> 00:44:01,820
years old now he'll be 82 and early

1005
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:03,080
January I think his birthday is January

1006
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:06,410
1st he'll be 82 in a couple of days he's

1007
00:44:12,190 --> 00:44:09,290
a researcher out of Wyoming who's been

1008
00:44:14,470 --> 00:44:12,200
doing this for 50 over 50 years started

1009
00:44:16,270 --> 00:44:14,480
in 1960 doing UFO research one of the

1010
00:44:18,430 --> 00:44:16,280
things he has done is he has a

1011
00:44:20,380 --> 00:44:18,440
questionnaire that he created in 1960

1012
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:20,390
he's been giving it to all his clients

1013
00:44:26,530 --> 00:44:22,970
that claim this phenomena so he's been

1014
00:44:29,980 --> 00:44:26,540
giving the same questionnaire for 50

1015
00:44:31,630 --> 00:44:29,990
years and one of the questions is on

1016
00:44:34,420 --> 00:44:31,640
this this is you know meant to be given

1017
00:44:36,820 --> 00:44:34,430
to you know UFO experience there's

1018
00:44:38,620 --> 00:44:36,830
people who see a UFO people who claim

1019
00:44:40,150 --> 00:44:38,630
the direct contact experience one of the

1020
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:40,160
questions is it do you believe in

1021
00:44:44,980 --> 00:44:43,760
reincarnation and I'm once again I'm

1022
00:44:49,180 --> 00:44:44,990
doing this just off the top of my head

1023
00:44:51,930 --> 00:44:49,190
so and he his what he's getting back

1024
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:51,940
from this questionnaire is that it is

1025
00:44:56,650 --> 00:44:54,530
it's not a hundred percent but it's so

1026
00:44:59,200 --> 00:44:56,660
close to a hundred percent that that

1027
00:45:01,150 --> 00:44:59,210
it's striking and that and I don't know

1028
00:45:03,490 --> 00:45:01,160
what the statistical norm is if you

1029
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:03,500
asked you know a random sampling of

1030
00:45:06,790 --> 00:45:04,970
people it would be much lower than a

1031
00:45:09,870 --> 00:45:06,800
hundred percent do you believe in

1032
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:09,880
reincarnation so that to me is a very

1033
00:45:15,430 --> 00:45:13,370
interesting detail that that a hundred

1034
00:45:17,350 --> 00:45:15,440
percent well close to a hundred percent

1035
00:45:20,260 --> 00:45:17,360
of the people who have had this

1036
00:45:21,790 --> 00:45:20,270
experience believe in reincarnation

1037
00:45:23,530 --> 00:45:21,800
okay well let's run with those two

1038
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:23,540
points those two data points I'm going

1039
00:45:27,370 --> 00:45:24,890
to pin you down here Mike I'm going to

1040
00:45:29,890 --> 00:45:27,380
continue to pin you down so the one had

1041
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:29,900
a point is God okay so there's there's

1042
00:45:33,370 --> 00:45:32,210
God deal with it whatever form doesn't

1043
00:45:36,130 --> 00:45:33,380
have to be an old man with a white beard

1044
00:45:41,020 --> 00:45:36,140
it doesn't have to be a bald Buddhist

1045
00:45:44,350 --> 00:45:41,030
it's God if we have that and then we mix

1046
00:45:48,820 --> 00:45:44,360
in the near-death experience but we mix

1047
00:45:51,670 --> 00:45:48,830
in just the most basic part that we can

1048
00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:51,680
all kind of look at and agree with and

1049
00:45:57,790 --> 00:45:54,110
for the near-death experience that would

1050
00:46:00,400 --> 00:45:57,800
be this overwhelming experience of love

1051
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:00,410
and if we also mix in from the

1052
00:46:05,350 --> 00:46:02,530
near-death experience the

1053
00:46:07,810 --> 00:46:05,360
moral imperative if you will this

1054
00:46:10,030 --> 00:46:07,820
directive to do things a certain way

1055
00:46:12,130 --> 00:46:10,040
there's a right way to do things there's

1056
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:12,140
a wrong way to do things and again

1057
00:46:16,750 --> 00:46:14,330
without layering on any kind of

1058
00:46:18,340 --> 00:46:16,760
religious overtones on that and you

1059
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:18,350
don't have to because you can pick your

1060
00:46:23,590 --> 00:46:19,850
religion and they all say the same thing

1061
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:23,600
the Golden Rule do unto others if I want

1062
00:46:31,030 --> 00:46:26,690
to start from that standpoint and say

1063
00:46:34,270 --> 00:46:31,040
that then becomes my lens with which I'm

1064
00:46:37,330 --> 00:46:34,280
going to look at everything else I look

1065
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:37,340
at the UFO phenomena and I am challenged

1066
00:46:42,910 --> 00:46:40,970
to either fit it into that framework or

1067
00:46:46,090 --> 00:46:42,920
say that it lies outside of that

1068
00:46:48,970 --> 00:46:46,100
framework so are the aliens God

1069
00:46:51,220 --> 00:46:48,980
I think he'd opinion me I'm sure you

1070
00:46:52,990 --> 00:46:51,230
could you could Chery pick the the

1071
00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:53,000
reports and and you could come up with

1072
00:46:59,410 --> 00:46:56,240
that answer that they are got now so I'm

1073
00:47:01,090 --> 00:46:59,420
looking around my my cabin in here and

1074
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:01,100
I've got so many books and I won't be

1075
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:02,690
able to tell you exactly where I'm

1076
00:47:06,550 --> 00:47:04,010
getting these references these are just

1077
00:47:12,220 --> 00:47:06,560
stuff I've read that may or name may not

1078
00:47:14,380 --> 00:47:12,230
be true so it's so in these narratives

1079
00:47:15,340 --> 00:47:14,390
these UFO abduction narratives people

1080
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:15,350
come back and they tell what they

1081
00:47:20,740 --> 00:47:18,170
experienced and so one person in one

1082
00:47:23,980 --> 00:47:20,750
narratives you know asks the little gray

1083
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:23,990
aliens you know they ask are you angels

1084
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:28,730
and the the grey aliens reply yes but

1085
00:47:33,790 --> 00:47:31,370
not in the way you think of angels which

1086
00:47:36,820 --> 00:47:33,800
is an interesting answer now another and

1087
00:47:37,870 --> 00:47:36,830
another report I have them you know when

1088
00:47:42,130 --> 00:47:37,880
it's one of these books on the Shelf

1089
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:42,140
here someone asks the the aliens um you

1090
00:47:45,460 --> 00:47:43,370
know they ask these big spiritual

1091
00:47:46,900 --> 00:47:45,470
questions and they ask the Angels excuse

1092
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:46,910
me they asked them there I just did it I

1093
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:49,970
they asked the gray aliens did God

1094
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:52,730
create the universe and the aliens reply

1095
00:47:58,780 --> 00:47:55,970
no God is creating the universe moment

1096
00:48:00,460 --> 00:47:58,790
by moment which is a which is a you know

1097
00:48:01,900 --> 00:48:00,470
that's almost like a Zen Cohen to get as

1098
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:01,910
an answer

1099
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:05,330
hey have you ever read the is a series

1100
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:07,330
of books called the Andreas and affair

1101
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:12,530
when I written by Raymond Fowler no okay

1102
00:48:15,710 --> 00:48:14,330
there's a it's follows this one woman

1103
00:48:17,870 --> 00:48:15,720
that he Andreasen who is very

1104
00:48:19,670 --> 00:48:17,880
chin and seize the whole phenomena

1105
00:48:22,190 --> 00:48:19,680
through sort of her own Christian

1106
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:22,200
ideology I think there's four books in

1107
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:23,730
the series and then sort of a fifth book

1108
00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:28,890
that that is at final summation so this

1109
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:31,920
woman Betty had had in her and her kids

1110
00:48:35,930 --> 00:48:34,290
and her parents and her husband if if

1111
00:48:38,210 --> 00:48:35,940
they're to be to believed they've all

1112
00:48:42,859 --> 00:48:38,220
had these abduction experiences now she

1113
00:48:45,410 --> 00:48:42,869
tells a story of being abducted taking

1114
00:48:48,710 --> 00:48:45,420
aboard a craft interacting with the

1115
00:48:50,990 --> 00:48:48,720
small gray aliens the aliens escort her

1116
00:48:53,420 --> 00:48:51,000
to and if I'm remembering this correctly

1117
00:48:55,099 --> 00:48:53,430
it's almost like a little gray box there

1118
00:48:57,410 --> 00:48:55,109
on the ship they say okay here not now

1119
00:48:59,210 --> 00:48:57,420
push the button on the box so she pushes

1120
00:49:01,550 --> 00:48:59,220
the button on the box and the next thing

1121
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:01,560
she knows she's she's taken through the

1122
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:04,290
tunnel she almost has a near-death

1123
00:49:07,790 --> 00:49:05,760
experience where she's dragged through

1124
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:07,800
the tunnel she emerges in this realm of

1125
00:49:16,099 --> 00:49:12,690
white light and before her is a giant

1126
00:49:18,710 --> 00:49:16,109
eagle a giant bird and she looks at this

1127
00:49:21,829 --> 00:49:18,720
bird and then the bird is enveloped in

1128
00:49:24,470 --> 00:49:21,839
flames and then it shrinks down to ashes

1129
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:24,480
and then from the ashes emerges this

1130
00:49:32,150 --> 00:49:27,330
golden bird and then from that golden

1131
00:49:35,570 --> 00:49:32,160
bird she has the overwhelming experience

1132
00:49:40,250 --> 00:49:35,580
of of you know absolute love of

1133
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:40,260
universal peace of you know magical love

1134
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:44,730
of very much communing with God then she

1135
00:49:49,910 --> 00:49:46,650
you know comes back through the tunnel

1136
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:49,920
she's in the the ship with the little

1137
00:49:53,359 --> 00:49:51,599
gray aliens again and they basically

1138
00:49:54,829 --> 00:49:53,369
quiz her like well how was it you know

1139
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:54,839
what happened what did you think and

1140
00:49:59,120 --> 00:49:57,450
she's she's transformed she's like oh my

1141
00:50:03,589 --> 00:49:59,130
god it was so beautiful it was magical

1142
00:50:06,890 --> 00:50:03,599
now um that same narrative shows up in

1143
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:06,900
other people's reports in one report

1144
00:50:10,010 --> 00:50:08,550
quite literally the same and then and

1145
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:10,020
then often in other reports it's got

1146
00:50:16,220 --> 00:50:11,970
it's got difference without the the

1147
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:16,230
mythological phoenix bird so the the

1148
00:50:22,190 --> 00:50:18,240
implication to me the way i read it is

1149
00:50:26,900 --> 00:50:22,200
that there that these aliens you know

1150
00:50:28,980 --> 00:50:26,910
these little grey beings are the way the

1151
00:50:32,099 --> 00:50:28,990
questioning takes place

1152
00:50:33,599 --> 00:50:32,109
if these reports are to be believed it

1153
00:50:35,670 --> 00:50:33,609
it sort of paints a picture where these

1154
00:50:39,299 --> 00:50:35,680
little aliens are wrestling with these

1155
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:39,309
questions you know the same as we are

1156
00:50:42,660 --> 00:50:41,200
can you really say that that they're

1157
00:50:45,089 --> 00:50:42,670
wrestling with the questions I mean

1158
00:50:46,470 --> 00:50:45,099
they're somehow what I took from you

1159
00:50:49,319 --> 00:50:46,480
that narrative and I'm getting it

1160
00:50:53,010 --> 00:50:49,329
secondhand from you is that they're able

1161
00:50:56,130 --> 00:50:53,020
to access that dimension that level of

1162
00:50:58,380 --> 00:50:56,140
consciousness more readily than we are

1163
00:51:03,829 --> 00:50:58,390
but you can also take that you know and

1164
00:51:06,329 --> 00:51:03,839
take the shamanic guru in the Hindu

1165
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:06,339
lineage I'm kind of more familiar with

1166
00:51:11,430 --> 00:51:08,890
now there's there's countless number of

1167
00:51:14,010 --> 00:51:11,440
people through the ages who claim to be

1168
00:51:17,339 --> 00:51:14,020
able to access that realm and access

1169
00:51:20,490 --> 00:51:17,349
that connection with with God with that

1170
00:51:24,660 --> 00:51:20,500
all loving being almost instantaneously

1171
00:51:26,910 --> 00:51:24,670
at will yes now if I made it and

1172
00:51:29,309 --> 00:51:26,920
described it quite right but the

1173
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:29,319
implication is that the little aliens

1174
00:51:33,539 --> 00:51:31,930
can't get through that door they can't

1175
00:51:37,470 --> 00:51:33,549
get through that tunnel there's that

1176
00:51:39,089 --> 00:51:37,480
that they are using you know they're

1177
00:51:41,849 --> 00:51:39,099
they're almost creating it they're

1178
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:41,859
they're taking mortals putting them

1179
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:43,839
through this process and then asking

1180
00:51:49,260 --> 00:51:47,530
them questions because they can't get

1181
00:51:53,240 --> 00:51:49,270
through that door because they are

1182
00:51:55,710 --> 00:51:53,250
somehow you know whether they're on some

1183
00:51:58,620 --> 00:51:55,720
alternate evolutionary track where they

1184
00:52:00,990 --> 00:51:58,630
you know can't access that Universal

1185
00:52:03,750 --> 00:52:01,000
love I mean I don't know if this is you

1186
00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:03,760
know this is this is the the way it was

1187
00:52:09,870 --> 00:52:07,200
framed in that that narrative and then

1188
00:52:12,740 --> 00:52:09,880
I've had some direct conversation or one

1189
00:52:16,380 --> 00:52:12,750
direct conversation where this woman

1190
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:16,390
spoke about this and it was and that was

1191
00:52:19,950 --> 00:52:17,680
her take on it so I'm sort of

1192
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:19,960
paraphrasing her take on this thing that

1193
00:52:31,470 --> 00:52:27,690
that they they are somehow incapable of

1194
00:52:33,930 --> 00:52:31,480
receiving that love and now if I jump

1195
00:52:35,970 --> 00:52:33,940
back on a grand grand metaphoric level

1196
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:35,980
you know these little gray aliens on

1197
00:52:41,130 --> 00:52:38,170
some level it doesn't doesn't take too

1198
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:41,140
much to perceive them this way they are

1199
00:52:46,350 --> 00:52:42,850
us right they look like us there

1200
00:52:48,570 --> 00:52:46,360
there there you know maybe you know some

1201
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:48,580
millions of years of evolution in the

1202
00:52:53,060 --> 00:52:50,650
future from us but they are us and then

1203
00:52:55,410 --> 00:52:53,070
and then we are being confronted with a

1204
00:52:58,080 --> 00:52:55,420
I'm gonna use the terminology with a

1205
00:53:04,440 --> 00:52:58,090
mythology where where where the the

1206
00:53:07,230 --> 00:53:04,450
future us can't access like this

1207
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:07,240
profound spiritual love and me I say

1208
00:53:11,850 --> 00:53:08,770
like whoa okay so there's a there's a

1209
00:53:14,190 --> 00:53:11,860
little parable and you know that means

1210
00:53:15,930 --> 00:53:14,200
that we now need to change our path so

1211
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:15,940
we don't go down that same road that

1212
00:53:22,770 --> 00:53:20,650
these little scientific non-spiritual

1213
00:53:24,660 --> 00:53:22,780
gray aliens with the with the big bald

1214
00:53:25,980 --> 00:53:24,670
heads and the big black eyes we don't go

1215
00:53:28,860 --> 00:53:25,990
down that same path that they've gone

1216
00:53:32,670 --> 00:53:28,870
down yeah boy I mean that's interesting

1217
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:32,680
that that's a great a great path to to

1218
00:53:37,380 --> 00:53:35,650
explore because that's another theme

1219
00:53:39,710 --> 00:53:37,390
that I hear over and over again in the

1220
00:53:42,510 --> 00:53:39,720
UFO community and the UFO research

1221
00:53:46,980 --> 00:53:42,520
community and it really it's funny

1222
00:53:49,410 --> 00:53:46,990
because it has a very materialistic bent

1223
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:49,420
to it when you really process it all the

1224
00:53:55,260 --> 00:53:52,210
way through you know it's along the same

1225
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:55,270
lines of oh it's about energy you know

1226
00:53:58,590 --> 00:53:56,650
whenever I hear people in the UFO

1227
00:54:01,080 --> 00:53:58,600
community talk about that the energy

1228
00:54:03,540 --> 00:54:01,090
systems or they're trying to show us

1229
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:03,550
energy systems and all that it's like I

1230
00:54:09,180 --> 00:54:06,130
don't know that just doesn't doesn't

1231
00:54:11,220 --> 00:54:09,190
really fit well in particular you know

1232
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:11,230
one of the things I'm just kind of

1233
00:54:14,970 --> 00:54:13,330
interested in on the periphery here and

1234
00:54:18,750 --> 00:54:14,980
it doesn't really play in but it does

1235
00:54:21,510 --> 00:54:18,760
but some of the recent developments with

1236
00:54:24,270 --> 00:54:21,520
cold fusion and low energy nuclear

1237
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:24,280
reactions which have now you know as we

1238
00:54:30,510 --> 00:54:27,970
speak at this day late December 2012

1239
00:54:33,450 --> 00:54:30,520
have pretty firmly been established that

1240
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:33,460
multiple labs both in the US and Italy

1241
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:36,370
and other places have shown that there

1242
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:38,290
is an effect there and that they can

1243
00:54:43,830 --> 00:54:40,650
generate energy kind of almost an

1244
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:43,840
limitless fashion and it'll be somewhat

1245
00:54:45,870 --> 00:54:45,370
of a challenge to get that out blah blah

1246
00:54:48,570 --> 00:54:45,880
blah

1247
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:48,580
enough of that digression but the point

1248
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:52,330
being that the simple it's about energy

1249
00:54:56,430 --> 00:54:54,490
it's about energy systems or they're

1250
00:54:57,810 --> 00:54:56,440
trying to show us our energy systems

1251
00:55:01,070 --> 00:54:57,820
they're trying to change our energy

1252
00:55:03,630 --> 00:55:01,080
systems just sounds so down

1253
00:55:05,940 --> 00:55:03,640
materialistic back to you know let's

1254
00:55:09,330 --> 00:55:05,950
play this game some more also you know

1255
00:55:11,670 --> 00:55:09,340
you've heard we just passed the 2012

1256
00:55:14,250 --> 00:55:11,680
Mayan calendar thing well you know spin

1257
00:55:15,510 --> 00:55:14,260
back the clock a year or two ago and go

1258
00:55:17,100 --> 00:55:15,520
listen to what people were saying

1259
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:17,110
including many people in the UFO

1260
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:18,610
community and they were saying all sorts

1261
00:55:23,580 --> 00:55:21,490
of connections and links that of course

1262
00:55:24,870 --> 00:55:23,590
never came to pass or jump over the

1263
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:24,880
other thing that just really kind of

1264
00:55:31,410 --> 00:55:27,610
sends me off is the economic thing it's

1265
00:55:34,580 --> 00:55:31,420
the 2008 economic crisis that were in

1266
00:55:38,100 --> 00:55:34,590
it's like I mean that's such an

1267
00:55:39,690 --> 00:55:38,110
ethnocentric eco-centric kind of view of

1268
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:39,700
things I mean there's other parts of the

1269
00:55:44,970 --> 00:55:41,970
world that are doing great on a

1270
00:55:47,610 --> 00:55:44,980
financial basis so you know to kind of

1271
00:55:49,830 --> 00:55:47,620
take our tiny little part of the world

1272
00:55:52,260 --> 00:55:49,840
whatever it is are your local economy

1273
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:52,270
and extrapolate that out to have some

1274
00:56:00,750 --> 00:55:56,610
kind of huge not just intergalactic but

1275
00:56:03,630 --> 00:56:00,760
spiritual kind of implications to me

1276
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:03,640
seems kind of sketchy as does this idea

1277
00:56:09,660 --> 00:56:07,450
that the the real narrative are these

1278
00:56:11,250 --> 00:56:09,670
aliens and it's about souls and they

1279
00:56:14,370 --> 00:56:11,260
don't have a soul and they're trying to

1280
00:56:17,540 --> 00:56:14,380
regain a soul and all that that suggests

1281
00:56:20,250 --> 00:56:17,550
to me a deeper sense of knowing about

1282
00:56:22,530 --> 00:56:20,260
the mind of God for lack of a better

1283
00:56:25,020 --> 00:56:22,540
term then I would be willing to go I

1284
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:25,030
mean I don't know what all that means I

1285
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:26,410
don't know what the white light means I

1286
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:27,370
don't know what all the rest of that

1287
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:31,050
means but it certainly means to me that

1288
00:56:36,620 --> 00:56:33,010
again the message that we're getting

1289
00:56:40,050 --> 00:56:36,630
back in all that is that this material

1290
00:56:43,110 --> 00:56:40,060
reality that we have is a very very

1291
00:56:48,030 --> 00:56:43,120
limited kind of view of things and I

1292
00:56:50,610 --> 00:56:48,040
would put the alien soul-stealing kind

1293
00:56:53,910 --> 00:56:50,620
of hypothesis in that same category

1294
00:56:57,210 --> 00:56:53,920
because at the end of the day it's all

1295
00:56:59,910 --> 00:56:57,220
going up to one source so how would that

1296
00:57:02,150 --> 00:56:59,920
really play out in any way that's

1297
00:57:04,740 --> 00:57:02,160
meaningful that sounds to me like a very

1298
00:57:05,770 --> 00:57:04,750
human kind of invention that whole

1299
00:57:08,599 --> 00:57:05,780
narrative

1300
00:57:09,950 --> 00:57:08,609
you know and once again it's a Rorschach

1301
00:57:13,510 --> 00:57:09,960
you know ink blot you know that we're

1302
00:57:16,030 --> 00:57:13,520
staring at you know like it can it can

1303
00:57:17,900 --> 00:57:16,040
you know you can paint it with whatever

1304
00:57:19,490 --> 00:57:17,910
with whatever I almost want to say

1305
00:57:21,050 --> 00:57:19,500
whatever baggage you bring to it you

1306
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:21,060
know it's gonna it's gonna meet your

1307
00:57:28,609 --> 00:57:25,650
back you know the the the avenue of

1308
00:57:30,530 --> 00:57:28,619
research you go go into in a way I mean

1309
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:30,540
there's I don't know like I have no

1310
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:32,730
other so many ever this is the this is

1311
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:34,170
one of the things I've learned is that

1312
00:57:40,490 --> 00:57:36,210
everyone's got a different take on this

1313
00:57:42,220 --> 00:57:40,500
phenomena and and very few people I mean

1314
00:57:45,530 --> 00:57:42,230
whatever nobody agrees on everything so

1315
00:57:46,609 --> 00:57:45,540
so when you enter this community and I'm

1316
00:57:49,310 --> 00:57:46,619
just thinking of like you know walking

1317
00:57:51,230 --> 00:57:49,320
around at a UFO conference nobody is

1318
00:57:53,030 --> 00:57:51,240
gonna be telling the same story nobody

1319
00:57:56,690 --> 00:57:53,040
is gonna have the same conclusions and

1320
00:57:58,940 --> 00:57:56,700
that is but at the at the core I believe

1321
00:58:01,940 --> 00:57:58,950
there is a very real experience taking

1322
00:58:03,290 --> 00:58:01,950
place I that's you know often times I'll

1323
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:03,300
say that's the only thing I can say for

1324
00:58:09,530 --> 00:58:06,330
sure that's something something real is

1325
00:58:11,750 --> 00:58:09,540
happening beyond that I'm it's all

1326
00:58:14,030 --> 00:58:11,760
speculation on one level or another and

1327
00:58:16,099 --> 00:58:14,040
we but we all have to speculate right I

1328
00:58:18,070 --> 00:58:16,109
mean that's that's kind of our job if

1329
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:18,080
you will our job title here is

1330
00:58:24,050 --> 00:58:20,730
speculators that's the condition of

1331
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:24,060
being on earth but let me jump on that

1332
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:27,330
word a minute experience and experience

1333
00:58:33,490 --> 00:58:31,530
herb because it pops up in our field

1334
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:33,500
over here and consciousness research

1335
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:35,730
certainly in near-death experience

1336
00:58:43,070 --> 00:58:38,850
research and it always amazes me when I

1337
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:43,080
encounter folks who say well all's I can

1338
00:58:47,359 --> 00:58:45,210
tell you is that's my experience and

1339
00:58:49,849 --> 00:58:47,369
then they want to come end the

1340
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:49,859
conversation there and got to put QED

1341
00:58:53,300 --> 00:58:51,330
I've solved it you know that's my

1342
00:58:57,710 --> 00:58:53,310
experience and I always find that

1343
00:59:00,770 --> 00:58:57,720
interesting because it's manul imited in

1344
00:59:03,470 --> 00:59:00,780
a way and it seems like that what we

1345
00:59:06,349 --> 00:59:03,480
really want to do and this is what's so

1346
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:06,359
great about your work is you really want

1347
00:59:11,540 --> 00:59:08,730
to open up to as many of these

1348
00:59:14,810 --> 00:59:11,550
experiences as possible and take them

1349
00:59:16,190 --> 00:59:14,820
all in and gain from experiences that

1350
00:59:18,470 --> 00:59:16,200
you're not going to have because let's

1351
00:59:19,609 --> 00:59:18,480
face it we can't all have all these

1352
00:59:20,930 --> 00:59:19,619
experience

1353
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:20,940
so you have to share with the

1354
00:59:25,250 --> 00:59:23,490
experiences of others and what I feel a

1355
00:59:28,910 --> 00:59:25,260
need to do is kind of go one step

1356
00:59:31,910 --> 00:59:28,920
further and realizing the dangers that

1357
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:31,920
lie within doing this but try and

1358
00:59:37,309 --> 00:59:35,730
understand those experiences somewhat

1359
00:59:39,799 --> 00:59:37,319
scientifically so I want to start

1360
00:59:41,299 --> 00:59:39,809
sorting them and shifting them shifting

1361
00:59:43,970 --> 00:59:41,309
them and then pulling them apart and

1362
00:59:47,329 --> 00:59:43,980
trying to figure out where I can really

1363
00:59:50,089 --> 00:59:47,339
feel more grounded in the reality of

1364
00:59:52,430 --> 00:59:50,099
those experiences and I really resist

1365
00:59:54,020 --> 00:59:52,440
people who go oh no no no no don't step

1366
00:59:56,180 --> 00:59:54,030
over that line you don't want to do that

1367
00:59:58,130 --> 00:59:56,190
you don't want to apply those sight you

1368
01:00:00,650 --> 00:59:58,140
can't really apply science to that and

1369
01:00:02,930 --> 01:00:00,660
it's like of course we can I mean that's

1370
01:00:06,020 --> 01:00:02,940
what we need to do it seems to me is we

1371
01:00:09,410 --> 01:00:06,030
do need to filter out these experiences

1372
01:00:15,069 --> 01:00:09,420
and try and understand them as best we

1373
01:00:19,599 --> 01:00:15,079
can in this measurement of real not real

1374
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:19,609
probably somewhere in between yep yeah

1375
01:00:24,140 --> 01:00:22,290
now there's so there's like one of the

1376
01:00:26,900 --> 01:00:24,150
things that I'm doing is I'm making an

1377
01:00:28,370 --> 01:00:26,910
effort to talk to people who purposely

1378
01:00:30,890 --> 01:00:28,380
challenged me and I'll and I'll say like

1379
01:00:33,859 --> 01:00:30,900
the folks that are into the you know

1380
01:00:38,359 --> 01:00:33,869
surf all into the New Age you know

1381
01:00:40,039 --> 01:00:38,369
like I'm I'm challenged like I my toes

1382
01:00:42,770 --> 01:00:40,049
curl up in my shoes sometimes when I

1383
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:42,780
hear the things that could they say that

1384
01:00:46,130 --> 01:00:44,730
doesn't make it wrong that's just an

1385
01:00:48,380 --> 01:00:46,140
emotional reaction I'm having two

1386
01:00:50,030 --> 01:00:48,390
vocabulary words I can't help but jump

1387
01:00:54,380 --> 01:00:50,040
over on the other side sometimes because

1388
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:54,390
there are some things we know if you

1389
01:00:59,030 --> 01:00:56,130
will and let's talk for a minute about

1390
01:01:03,260 --> 01:00:59,040
maybe some of the things we know so we

1391
01:01:06,799 --> 01:01:03,270
know there is a phenomena we know there

1392
01:01:09,700 --> 01:01:06,809
is some government knowledge of it

1393
01:01:13,609 --> 01:01:09,710
that's well documented in the best

1394
01:01:15,700 --> 01:01:13,619
sourced material we can get and that is

1395
01:01:18,950 --> 01:01:15,710
the government's own documents and

1396
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:18,960
testimony from government officials we

1397
01:01:26,210 --> 01:01:21,890
know there's a deliberate attempt to

1398
01:01:28,370 --> 01:01:26,220
miss inform folks about what the

1399
01:01:31,810 --> 01:01:28,380
government knows whatever the government

1400
01:01:33,340 --> 01:01:31,820
does know what else do we know

1401
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:33,350
okay what else do we know we know that

1402
01:01:36,790 --> 01:01:34,610
there are fists there's physical

1403
01:01:39,220 --> 01:01:36,800
evidence what else do we know

1404
01:01:41,650 --> 01:01:39,230
oh here's a sub is making some notes

1405
01:01:43,390 --> 01:01:41,660
here when I talk to women that have had

1406
01:01:45,970 --> 01:01:43,400
the UFO experience the abduction

1407
01:01:47,890 --> 01:01:45,980
experience then it seems that it's

1408
01:01:50,620 --> 01:01:47,900
universal that a hundred percent of the

1409
01:01:53,500 --> 01:01:50,630
women or will tell stories whether this

1410
01:01:54,910 --> 01:01:53,510
is a psychic phenomena whether it's a

1411
01:01:59,020 --> 01:01:54,920
totally physical phenomena whether it's

1412
01:02:02,400 --> 01:01:59,030
some blending of both there they will

1413
01:02:07,990 --> 01:02:02,410
tell stories of strange pregnancies

1414
01:02:11,260 --> 01:02:08,000
missing fetuses encounters on ships

1415
01:02:13,900 --> 01:02:11,270
where they will interact with tiny

1416
01:02:16,060 --> 01:02:13,910
babies the implication and then actually

1417
01:02:20,230 --> 01:02:16,070
meeting hybrid children hearing it

1418
01:02:22,660 --> 01:02:20,240
telepathically through their their

1419
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:22,670
encounter that this is their child now

1420
01:02:25,930 --> 01:02:24,770
like there's very little proof that this

1421
01:02:28,090 --> 01:02:25,940
actually exists there are some

1422
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:28,100
gynecological records that tell of odd

1423
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:31,010
pregnancies and you know that have

1424
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:34,370
stumped the doctors so let me just add

1425
01:02:38,770 --> 01:02:35,930
because I picked this up from an

1426
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:38,780
interview that you did and I don't have

1427
01:02:43,990 --> 01:02:41,330
any verification of this source and I

1428
01:02:47,470 --> 01:02:44,000
don't know if you do either but the the

1429
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:47,480
account is I was pregnant I went to the

1430
01:02:51,940 --> 01:02:49,730
doctor the doctor said I was pregnant I

1431
01:02:54,790 --> 01:02:51,950
returned to the doctor or some period

1432
01:02:57,250 --> 01:02:54,800
later the doctor said what happened

1433
01:02:58,210 --> 01:02:57,260
you're no longer pregnant I don't know

1434
01:03:00,850 --> 01:02:58,220
what happened

1435
01:03:04,060 --> 01:03:00,860
that doesn't seem true this is clearly

1436
01:03:07,540 --> 01:03:04,070
from your medical exam you clearly had

1437
01:03:10,030 --> 01:03:07,550
an abortion what's going on here and the

1438
01:03:12,850 --> 01:03:10,040
doctor won't believe the patient and

1439
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:12,860
that's where the kind of mystery kind of

1440
01:03:18,030 --> 01:03:15,410
rest ends right is that kind of it an

1441
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:18,040
often women will not be sexually active

1442
01:03:22,180 --> 01:03:20,210
and they'll be pregnant you know that

1443
01:03:24,420 --> 01:03:22,190
that's whatever like few things in our

1444
01:03:28,930 --> 01:03:24,430
society are more you know fraught with

1445
01:03:32,020 --> 01:03:28,940
drama than you know virgin birth but so

1446
01:03:33,250 --> 01:03:32,030
so there's there's that aspect to it to

1447
01:03:38,290 --> 01:03:33,260
where they will not be sexually active

1448
01:03:42,190 --> 01:03:38,300
they will so so I'm like so I don't know

1449
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:42,200
I like I can't prove who no and we like

1450
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:45,170
in to perhaps someone's satisfaction

1451
01:03:48,650 --> 01:03:45,930
this is

1452
01:03:50,270 --> 01:03:48,660
I'm going from the point that that it is

1453
01:03:52,460 --> 01:03:50,280
it's almost I mean it's basically

1454
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:52,470
expected you know in my sense now like

1455
01:03:56,180 --> 01:03:53,850
if I talk to a woman who claims the

1456
01:03:57,410 --> 01:03:56,190
abduction phenomena you know one of the

1457
01:03:59,390 --> 01:03:57,420
questions I'll ask is like hey if you

1458
01:04:00,950 --> 01:03:59,400
had any odd experiences with pregnancies

1459
01:04:03,050 --> 01:04:00,960
and there'll be a pause on the phone or

1460
01:04:04,550 --> 01:04:03,060
or you know and then she'll take a deep

1461
01:04:09,020 --> 01:04:04,560
breath and she'll say well yes here's

1462
01:04:10,310 --> 01:04:09,030
what happened so yes so maybe this

1463
01:04:12,620 --> 01:04:10,320
shouldn't be in the category of things

1464
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:12,630
we know for sure but it is certainly in

1465
01:04:18,260 --> 01:04:15,330
the category of a reoccurring pattern

1466
01:04:23,510 --> 01:04:18,270
that is so defined that it is very

1467
01:04:25,850 --> 01:04:23,520
difficult to ignore and dismiss great

1468
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:25,860
anything else that we know we know that

1469
01:04:29,270 --> 01:04:27,810
there's a and this is going back to the

1470
01:04:31,820 --> 01:04:29,280
fairy lore and stuff like that we know

1471
01:04:33,980 --> 01:04:31,830
that there is a a record that goes

1472
01:04:36,950 --> 01:04:33,990
stretches back you know before the

1473
01:04:41,510 --> 01:04:36,960
modern age of the UFO phenomena that

1474
01:04:43,190 --> 01:04:41,520
would tell of very similar stories this

1475
01:04:48,430 --> 01:04:43,200
is that word mythology again we have it

1476
01:04:51,140 --> 01:04:48,440
in our mythology that you know women are

1477
01:04:53,570 --> 01:04:51,150
with pregnant women are you know would

1478
01:04:57,830 --> 01:04:53,580
be interacted you know fairies in a

1479
01:05:01,250 --> 01:04:57,840
Celtic lore elves in a war Nordic lore

1480
01:05:03,410 --> 01:05:01,260
of you know trickster animals in a

1481
01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:03,420
Native American lore all would have an

1482
01:05:06,860 --> 01:05:04,530
interest in pregnant women

1483
01:05:08,810 --> 01:05:06,870
well that touches on this other thing

1484
01:05:11,870 --> 01:05:08,820
that maybe falls into that category of

1485
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:11,880
what we know and that's that the use of

1486
01:05:19,850 --> 01:05:16,130
psychedelics be they in a shamanic

1487
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:19,860
setting like ayahuasca or something like

1488
01:05:25,550 --> 01:05:23,130
that or in a clinical setting like the

1489
01:05:29,930 --> 01:05:25,560
use of DMT by Rick Strassman in New

1490
01:05:33,500 --> 01:05:29,940
Mexico those experiences have yielded a

1491
01:05:36,590 --> 01:05:33,510
lot of encounters with beings that map

1492
01:05:40,970 --> 01:05:36,600
almost directly to the UFO experience

1493
01:05:43,340 --> 01:05:40,980
and some of the experiences of ayahuasca

1494
01:05:45,620 --> 01:05:43,350
down in Central America native people

1495
01:05:47,900 --> 01:05:45,630
are drawing pictures of you know flying

1496
01:05:50,510 --> 01:05:47,910
saucers that they saw and it's kind of

1497
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:50,520
uniform it or beings that look a lot

1498
01:05:54,770 --> 01:05:53,010
like the beings that contact these

1499
01:05:57,890 --> 01:05:54,780
reports so I guess that's something else

1500
01:05:58,870 --> 01:05:57,900
maybe in that category like you said not

1501
01:06:01,300 --> 01:05:58,880
that we know

1502
01:06:04,170 --> 01:06:01,310
but that there is a high correlation

1503
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:04,180
between these these two things

1504
01:06:09,070 --> 01:06:06,410
absolutely and that's where it gets very

1505
01:06:10,510 --> 01:06:09,080
you know murky where you you realize

1506
01:06:11,740 --> 01:06:10,520
that there's an element there's a

1507
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:11,750
physical element to it you know like

1508
01:06:15,250 --> 01:06:13,250
people will say like oh the flying

1509
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:15,260
saucer landed in my backyard I was

1510
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:16,970
escorted out of the house and you know

1511
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:18,410
taken on board the flying saucer and

1512
01:06:22,420 --> 01:06:20,810
then um you know the researcher will

1513
01:06:24,070 --> 01:06:22,430
show up and there'll be a burn mark in

1514
01:06:26,620 --> 01:06:24,080
the backyard and you know exactly where

1515
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:26,630
the person said it was so we do have

1516
01:06:34,030 --> 01:06:29,210
these you know these kind of physical

1517
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:34,040
events that can that can be you know

1518
01:06:38,590 --> 01:06:36,890
documented by a researcher and also very

1519
01:06:39,250 --> 01:06:38,600
easily dismissed or are not easily

1520
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:39,260
dismissed

1521
01:06:46,090 --> 01:06:43,130
you know folks that don't want to look

1522
01:06:49,450 --> 01:06:46,100
into this but the the the whole

1523
01:06:53,890 --> 01:06:49,460
psychedelic thing you know that paints a

1524
01:06:57,730 --> 01:06:53,900
picture of something on a psycho

1525
01:07:02,740 --> 01:06:57,740
mystical realm that's also using the

1526
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:02,750
same of all the same characters you know

1527
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:05,450
the theater of the of the of the

1528
01:07:10,690 --> 01:07:08,450
psychedelic experience has many of the

1529
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:10,700
same plot points in the same the same

1530
01:07:16,540 --> 01:07:13,730
imagery that would be within the

1531
01:07:19,420 --> 01:07:16,550
physical realm of these these abduction

1532
01:07:21,460 --> 01:07:19,430
cases that gets back to the the most

1533
01:07:24,910 --> 01:07:21,470
challenging part of all that is we don't

1534
01:07:28,300 --> 01:07:24,920
understand the nature of that extended

1535
01:07:30,070 --> 01:07:28,310
consciousness beyond our physical level

1536
01:07:31,870 --> 01:07:30,080
so whenever we talk about theater or

1537
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:31,880
those that you know is it theater to us

1538
01:07:37,090 --> 01:07:34,450
or is it theater to them or you know

1539
01:07:40,230 --> 01:07:37,100
whatever them is and I don't just mean

1540
01:07:42,730 --> 01:07:40,240
that in an alien sense I mean that in a

1541
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:42,740
interdimensional whatever that is that

1542
01:07:48,850 --> 01:07:46,010
people are encountering under ayahuasca

1543
01:07:51,580 --> 01:07:48,860
that isn't an illusion or that you know

1544
01:07:53,260 --> 01:07:51,590
it because of course backtracking a step

1545
01:07:55,420 --> 01:07:53,270
that is the conclusion of the one

1546
01:07:57,370 --> 01:07:55,430
scientist that's done the most extensive

1547
01:08:00,850 --> 01:07:57,380
work on this that's Rick Strassman

1548
01:08:02,140 --> 01:08:00,860
well respected scientific guy publishing

1549
01:08:04,530 --> 01:08:02,150
in peer-reviewed journal and his

1550
01:08:07,780 --> 01:08:04,540
conclusion is that one they're not

1551
01:08:10,180 --> 01:08:07,790
delusional and two that the encounters

1552
01:08:12,359 --> 01:08:10,190
that they're having are with beings that

1553
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:12,369
seem to be freestanding

1554
01:08:18,010 --> 01:08:15,650
beings that do have an ability to kind

1555
01:08:21,039 --> 01:08:18,020
of move in this environment so it kind

1556
01:08:24,490 --> 01:08:21,049
of on one hand it defies completely our

1557
01:08:26,860 --> 01:08:24,500
whole kind of reductionistic scientific

1558
01:08:29,260 --> 01:08:26,870
materialistic kind of view of mind and

1559
01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:29,270
consciousness but heck if we don't get

1560
01:08:33,789 --> 01:08:31,370
past that we can't get into any of these

1561
01:08:36,670 --> 01:08:33,799
dialogues but given that that's the case

1562
01:08:39,370 --> 01:08:36,680
then I think it all this stuff begs the

1563
01:08:42,030 --> 01:08:39,380
question of can we really understand

1564
01:08:44,620 --> 01:08:42,040
this can we even talk about this

1565
01:08:48,039 --> 01:08:44,630
extended consciousness in any way that's

1566
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:48,049
intelligent from our perspective from

1567
01:08:52,990 --> 01:08:51,170
where we are from down here if you will

1568
01:08:54,849 --> 01:08:53,000
I'm not sure what to say and then that

1569
01:08:57,460 --> 01:08:54,859
you know I I feel like I'm constantly

1570
01:08:58,900 --> 01:08:57,470
confronted within the term I will use is

1571
01:09:00,130 --> 01:08:58,910
something's going on behind the curtain

1572
01:09:03,660 --> 01:09:00,140
you know I'm implying that there's this

1573
01:09:07,749 --> 01:09:03,670
other dimensional realm that is that is

1574
01:09:11,499 --> 01:09:07,759
that they these aliens can access that

1575
01:09:13,180 --> 01:09:11,509
we can barely access maybe we can access

1576
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:13,190
it through death maybe we can access it

1577
01:09:18,519 --> 01:09:15,170
through psychedelics maybe we can access

1578
01:09:21,670 --> 01:09:18,529
it through intense meditation or through

1579
01:09:24,730 --> 01:09:21,680
dream realms you know we can access that

1580
01:09:26,349 --> 01:09:24,740
work that realm fleetingly it's not like

1581
01:09:31,210 --> 01:09:26,359
it's not like we're living in that realm

1582
01:09:33,670 --> 01:09:31,220
it seems to be that they either are in a

1583
01:09:38,110 --> 01:09:33,680
partially physical realm or they are in

1584
01:09:41,829 --> 01:09:38,120
a partially mystical spiritual other

1585
01:09:43,539 --> 01:09:41,839
dimensional realm that that gets very

1586
01:09:45,249 --> 01:09:43,549
firm feel like I'm searching for my

1587
01:09:48,309 --> 01:09:45,259
words here they could think it's very

1588
01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:48,319
challenging to define simply because we

1589
01:09:53,140 --> 01:09:51,410
are on this side of the curtain you know

1590
01:09:55,650 --> 01:09:53,150
I almost will say that like I almost go

1591
01:09:58,060 --> 01:09:55,660
back to like the the mythological

1592
01:10:00,790 --> 01:09:58,070
interpretations of the Garden of Eden

1593
01:10:03,010 --> 01:10:00,800
where you know I read one account where

1594
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:03,020
someone died dissected the Garden of

1595
01:10:09,430 --> 01:10:05,410
Eden where it was was basically the

1596
01:10:13,420 --> 01:10:09,440
separation of of man from the garden was

1597
01:10:16,050 --> 01:10:13,430
the separation of man from that greater

1598
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:16,060
grander knowing of that

1599
01:10:20,830 --> 01:10:19,010
multi-dimensional realm whether that's

1600
01:10:23,470 --> 01:10:20,840
true or not I don't know but that is

1601
01:10:25,900 --> 01:10:23,480
something I sense that we we as humans

1602
01:10:29,020 --> 01:10:25,910
are challenged confronting that realm

1603
01:10:31,420 --> 01:10:29,030
they the aliens are not I'm simplifying

1604
01:10:34,450 --> 01:10:31,430
that greatly just when I said that but I

1605
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:34,460
like that a lot i I think that while I

1606
01:10:38,860 --> 01:10:36,650
wouldn't want to hang my hat on that a

1607
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:38,870
lot of the evidence does seem to be

1608
01:10:45,100 --> 01:10:41,090
pointing in that direction and it does

1609
01:10:47,770 --> 01:10:45,110
in a way kind of close the loop a little

1610
01:10:50,530 --> 01:10:47,780
bit in terms of trying to understand how

1611
01:10:53,710 --> 01:10:50,540
all these different experiences might

1612
01:10:57,310 --> 01:10:53,720
fit together so Mike maybe with that it

1613
01:10:59,680 --> 01:10:57,320
might be a good place to start wrapping

1614
01:11:02,230 --> 01:10:59,690
this up what other issues are pressing

1615
01:11:05,170 --> 01:11:02,240
you and as you go forward with hidden

1616
01:11:06,100 --> 01:11:05,180
experience I've had a set that's very

1617
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:06,110
interesting we've done this whole

1618
01:11:08,890 --> 01:11:07,610
dialogue here and I haven't really

1619
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:08,900
shared any of my own experiences which

1620
01:11:13,060 --> 01:11:10,850
felt great because in a way I feel like

1621
01:11:15,550 --> 01:11:13,070
I've I've shared my experience as so

1622
01:11:17,170 --> 01:11:15,560
many times that I kind of feel like I go

1623
01:11:18,670 --> 01:11:17,180
on autopilot when I tell the stories and

1624
01:11:21,730 --> 01:11:18,680
I think that's a little unfair to anyone

1625
01:11:24,130 --> 01:11:21,740
listening but so I went to this would

1626
01:11:26,590 --> 01:11:24,140
have been in 2009 I went to a UFO

1627
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:26,600
conference there was this woman her name

1628
01:11:30,100 --> 01:11:28,370
is Miriam Delicato I've interviewed her

1629
01:11:32,350 --> 01:11:30,110
on the site she said a lot of very

1630
01:11:36,310 --> 01:11:32,360
strange experiences i sat with her for a

1631
01:11:37,660 --> 01:11:36,320
little while and and I was I was in a I

1632
01:11:39,910 --> 01:11:37,670
don't want to say well sure the dark

1633
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:39,920
night of the soul is as good as any term

1634
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:42,290
I was extremely challenged these

1635
01:11:46,090 --> 01:11:44,330
memories were welling up I didn't know

1636
01:11:49,480 --> 01:11:46,100
what to do with them they were scary

1637
01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:49,490
they they they challenged my definition

1638
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:51,890
of reality so I you know I said you know

1639
01:11:54,490 --> 01:11:53,090
what you know what how do what do I do

1640
01:11:56,800 --> 01:11:54,500
you know like how do I proceed forward

1641
01:11:58,510 --> 01:11:56,810
and she very thoughtfully said you

1642
01:12:02,740 --> 01:11:58,520
should talk about these these you should

1643
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:02,750
talk more about this stuff and I drove

1644
01:12:11,580 --> 01:12:05,810
back from the conference and I literally

1645
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:11,590
I am not exaggerating it felt like I was

1646
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:15,770
compelled by an outside source I came

1647
01:12:21,430 --> 01:12:19,850
home and started the blog almost I don't

1648
01:12:23,740 --> 01:12:21,440
even think I took my coat off after

1649
01:12:25,030 --> 01:12:23,750
coming home from the the conference I

1650
01:12:27,610 --> 01:12:25,040
you know pulled up into the driveway and

1651
01:12:29,140 --> 01:12:27,620
the long drive you know 18 hour drive

1652
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:29,150
came was that right down at the computer

1653
01:12:35,650 --> 01:12:32,930
and started the blog initially the blog

1654
01:12:37,330 --> 01:12:35,660
was just a collection of synchronicities

1655
01:12:39,430 --> 01:12:37,340
which i've had a lot of and they they

1656
01:12:40,689 --> 01:12:39,440
make for very tidy

1657
01:12:42,220 --> 01:12:40,699
you know the perfect though blog

1658
01:12:44,830 --> 01:12:42,230
postings right there tidy they got a

1659
01:12:47,020 --> 01:12:44,840
little punch line at the end and so I

1660
01:12:52,270 --> 01:12:47,030
started posting those at a certain point

1661
01:12:55,450 --> 01:12:52,280
I started posting my some of the

1662
01:12:56,919 --> 01:12:55,460
memories of my what would what could be

1663
01:12:57,970 --> 01:12:56,929
interpreted you know here I'm doing it

1664
01:13:01,810 --> 01:12:57,980
right now I'm doing it right now I'm

1665
01:13:03,550 --> 01:13:01,820
very shy to call myself you know give

1666
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:03,560
myself the label that I was so easily

1667
01:13:08,110 --> 01:13:06,050
and Kenyan callously labeling other

1668
01:13:10,660 --> 01:13:08,120
people so I've had experiences that

1669
01:13:14,830 --> 01:13:10,670
might seem to depending on how you look

1670
01:13:16,629 --> 01:13:14,840
at it fit the definition of UFO contact

1671
01:13:18,729 --> 01:13:16,639
abduction so there I went around the

1672
01:13:21,340 --> 01:13:18,739
block rather than saying it outright

1673
01:13:24,370 --> 01:13:21,350
because I because it is so weird is so

1674
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:24,380
challenging that I can't it just would

1675
01:13:29,020 --> 01:13:26,570
feel dishonest deep down if I called

1676
01:13:31,810 --> 01:13:29,030
myself a UFO abductees so I don't I go

1677
01:13:34,419 --> 01:13:31,820
right up to that line and and and maybe

1678
01:13:38,950 --> 01:13:34,429
that's shallowness and on my part I

1679
01:13:43,860 --> 01:13:38,960
don't know but I started posting some of

1680
01:13:49,470 --> 01:13:43,870
my memories online in doing so I was

1681
01:13:51,700 --> 01:13:49,480
slammed with such crazy overwhelming

1682
01:13:55,180 --> 01:13:51,710
impossible to ignore synchronicities

1683
01:13:56,830 --> 01:13:55,190
that I was forced to deal with the

1684
01:13:57,780 --> 01:13:56,840
reality of this so it wasn't the

1685
01:14:00,879 --> 01:13:57,790
memories

1686
01:14:03,939 --> 01:14:00,889
it wasn't the experiences

1687
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:03,949
it wasn't the marks on my body that made

1688
01:14:08,140 --> 01:14:05,570
me take this seriously

1689
01:14:10,629 --> 01:14:08,150
it was the synchronicities when I

1690
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:10,639
started sharing when I started looking

1691
01:14:13,930 --> 01:14:12,290
into my own extinct my own experience

1692
01:14:17,979 --> 01:14:13,940
this was the synchronicities that forced

1693
01:14:20,470 --> 01:14:17,989
me to to take this seriously

1694
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:20,480
I was very capable of denying you know

1695
01:14:25,060 --> 01:14:22,010
the stuff that has happened to me I mean

1696
01:14:28,510 --> 01:14:25,070
um a very very you know like I was I

1697
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:28,520
denied it outright for four base five

1698
01:14:34,390 --> 01:14:31,850
years and then in the last so I'm 50 now

1699
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:34,400
so in the last five years or so I have

1700
01:14:43,660 --> 01:14:38,090
looked into this in a way that obsession

1701
01:14:44,890 --> 01:14:43,670
is a perfect term obsessively and let me

1702
01:14:46,180 --> 01:14:44,900
just jump in there with one thing

1703
01:14:48,879 --> 01:14:46,190
because I've heard you say that before

1704
01:14:52,940 --> 01:14:48,889
why do you think your interest in this

1705
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:52,950
is obsessive I think your being

1706
01:14:58,760 --> 01:14:55,650
too hard on yourself and I think that

1707
01:15:03,380 --> 01:14:58,770
that I'd flip it around and say how

1708
01:15:05,210 --> 01:15:03,390
anyone can ignore the the huge

1709
01:15:07,670 --> 01:15:05,220
implications that these questions have

1710
01:15:09,470 --> 01:15:07,680
for their life as I said before on a

1711
01:15:12,500 --> 01:15:09,480
day-to-day basis and the way that you

1712
01:15:15,260 --> 01:15:12,510
choose to live your life to me seems to

1713
01:15:17,090 --> 01:15:15,270
be really the the part of a

1714
01:15:19,340 --> 01:15:17,100
psychological condition that needs to be

1715
01:15:22,310 --> 01:15:19,350
explained and that is how can you ignore

1716
01:15:25,310 --> 01:15:22,320
this stuff how can we you know continue

1717
01:15:28,430 --> 01:15:25,320
to kind of distract ourselves constantly

1718
01:15:31,750 --> 01:15:28,440
continuously with stuff that we know is

1719
01:15:35,030 --> 01:15:31,760
total fluff and it doesn't have any real

1720
01:15:36,770 --> 01:15:35,040
significance for our life so I don't

1721
01:15:38,930 --> 01:15:36,780
know I have to challenge you on the idea

1722
01:15:40,700 --> 01:15:38,940
of how do you think your obsessive is it

1723
01:15:43,310 --> 01:15:40,710
is it somehow disrupting your life or

1724
01:15:48,710 --> 01:15:43,320
making your life really unsettled in

1725
01:15:50,630 --> 01:15:48,720
some way yes I'm obsessed to the point

1726
01:15:51,740 --> 01:15:50,640
where it has changed now see this is

1727
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:51,750
like and I've talked to folks and this

1728
01:15:55,310 --> 01:15:53,250
is like the people who have had this

1729
01:15:56,540 --> 01:15:55,320
experience well I'm just parroting what

1730
01:15:58,490 --> 01:15:56,550
they're saying because I've heard it I'm

1731
01:16:01,370 --> 01:15:58,500
saying it myself and what happens is an

1732
01:16:03,770 --> 01:16:01,380
old set of friends fades away a new set

1733
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:03,780
of friends emerges well that's gonna

1734
01:16:06,650 --> 01:16:05,370
that happens anything you know any that

1735
01:16:09,140 --> 01:16:06,660
the same thing happens to people and

1736
01:16:10,940 --> 01:16:09,150
they just join the church or move from

1737
01:16:12,830 --> 01:16:10,950
one church to another and that's I'm not

1738
01:16:15,710 --> 01:16:12,840
a Christian but I mean I understand that

1739
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:15,720
experience well it feels a little

1740
01:16:17,930 --> 01:16:17,370
obsessive to me because it has impacted

1741
01:16:19,820 --> 01:16:17,940
my life

1742
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:19,830
and it's funny because that's one of the

1743
01:16:24,290 --> 01:16:21,930
things that you I've talked to folks at

1744
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:24,300
you know basically UFO conferences I've

1745
01:16:27,020 --> 01:16:25,170
you know talked to people on the phone

1746
01:16:29,390 --> 01:16:27,030
and people who've been at this a lot

1747
01:16:31,940 --> 01:16:29,400
longer than I have as far as the way

1748
01:16:33,470 --> 01:16:31,950
they've you know the path that they've

1749
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:33,480
been on you know they came to the

1750
01:16:38,900 --> 01:16:37,290
realization years before or I did and

1751
01:16:40,790 --> 01:16:38,910
I'll ask them on the ko god I'm so mixed

1752
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:40,800
up this is so challenging it so did so

1753
01:16:44,180 --> 01:16:42,570
like I don't know what to think I'm so

1754
01:16:45,740 --> 01:16:44,190
and they look at me and they go from

1755
01:16:47,750 --> 01:16:45,750
three years everyone goes through it

1756
01:16:49,070 --> 01:16:47,760
three years takes three years and I'm

1757
01:16:50,540 --> 01:16:49,080
sort of at the tail end of that three

1758
01:16:52,100 --> 01:16:50,550
years now where I guess it's more like

1759
01:16:56,240 --> 01:16:52,110
five years since I've really active been

1760
01:16:58,430 --> 01:16:56,250
actively been looking into it so but but

1761
01:16:59,960 --> 01:16:58,440
that you know so that was actually very

1762
01:17:01,430 --> 01:16:59,970
reassuring to have someone just say that

1763
01:17:04,700 --> 01:17:01,440
to me like oh yeah like everyone goes

1764
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:04,710
through that all right well I hope you

1765
01:17:09,860 --> 01:17:07,050
stay on it for a lot long

1766
01:17:12,380 --> 01:17:09,870
then then that kind of timeframe would

1767
01:17:14,690 --> 01:17:12,390
would suggest because you do a great job

1768
01:17:16,130 --> 01:17:14,700
the interviews are great I just hope I

1769
01:17:18,440 --> 01:17:16,140
can get to them they're somewhat lengthy

1770
01:17:20,990 --> 01:17:18,450
a lot of them as this one has turned out

1771
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:21,000
to be so you have to hang in there but

1772
01:17:25,130 --> 01:17:23,490
they're steady throughout the content

1773
01:17:28,370 --> 01:17:25,140
the quality of it doesn't really go

1774
01:17:31,190 --> 01:17:28,380
downside I hope everyone checks out your

1775
01:17:33,830 --> 01:17:31,200
interviews they can find them at hidden

1776
01:17:36,890 --> 01:17:33,840
experience dot blog spot.com you can

1777
01:17:38,570 --> 01:17:36,900
subscribe to them on iTunes Mike it's

1778
01:17:40,700 --> 01:17:38,580
been great having you on thanks so much

1779
01:17:44,420 --> 01:17:40,710
for joining me thank you so much

1780
01:17:46,550 --> 01:17:44,430
this was great thanks again to Mike for

1781
01:17:49,250 --> 01:17:46,560
joining me today on skeptic oh I hope

1782
01:17:51,530 --> 01:17:49,260
this interview got you thinking as much

1783
01:17:54,290 --> 01:17:51,540
as it got me thinking or really more

1784
01:17:56,960 --> 01:17:54,300
than thinking got me doing and by doing

1785
01:17:58,850 --> 01:17:56,970
I mean doing more research listening to

1786
01:18:02,120 --> 01:17:58,860
more interviews reading more books and

1787
01:18:05,450 --> 01:18:02,130
trying to understand as much as I can

1788
01:18:06,890 --> 01:18:05,460
just what this phenomena is all about so

1789
01:18:08,990 --> 01:18:06,900
there's a couple of questions that I

1790
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:09,000
might tee up for discussion from this

1791
01:18:16,010 --> 01:18:12,810
interview the first is what the heck is

1792
01:18:18,650 --> 01:18:16,020
going on what do you make of these

1793
01:18:21,710 --> 01:18:18,660
reports of contact with this other

1794
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:21,720
consciousness this alien consciousness

1795
01:18:26,870 --> 01:18:23,970
and keep in mind if you haven't

1796
01:18:29,420 --> 01:18:26,880
researched this very much you need to

1797
01:18:31,370 --> 01:18:29,430
dive into it a little bit because what

1798
01:18:32,870 --> 01:18:31,380
you'll find is really really

1799
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:32,880
overwhelming evidence you'll find

1800
01:18:37,940 --> 01:18:35,610
evidence of for example Travis Walton a

1801
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:37,950
guy who's out with five of his buddies

1802
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:41,370
in there riding home and they all see up

1803
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:45,570
close a UFO and one of the guys gets out

1804
01:18:50,780 --> 01:18:47,850
Travis Walton and gets close enough to

1805
01:18:53,480 --> 01:18:50,790
touch it and when he touches it boom

1806
01:18:54,260 --> 01:18:53,490
he's immediately zapped everyone else

1807
01:18:57,470 --> 01:18:54,270
runs away

1808
01:19:00,680 --> 01:18:57,480
Travis wall shows up naked four days

1809
01:19:02,900 --> 01:19:00,690
later having been abducted what do you

1810
01:19:05,060 --> 01:19:02,910
do with a report like that and that's

1811
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:05,070
just one of many but what do you do with

1812
01:19:10,190 --> 01:19:07,890
a report where several solid witnesses

1813
01:19:12,380 --> 01:19:10,200
have a shared report all see the same

1814
01:19:14,270 --> 01:19:12,390
thing and then one person takes it

1815
01:19:16,370 --> 01:19:14,280
further and says no there was contact

1816
01:19:19,370 --> 01:19:16,380
associated with this so again there's

1817
01:19:20,209 --> 01:19:19,380
many and many accounts like that I think

1818
01:19:23,990 --> 01:19:20,219
were for

1819
01:19:25,790 --> 01:19:24,000
to either dismiss those all right them

1820
01:19:28,250 --> 01:19:25,800
all off and the only reason to do that

1821
01:19:32,060 --> 01:19:28,260
would be cuz we just can't deal with it

1822
01:19:34,220 --> 01:19:32,070
or we have to somehow figure out how

1823
01:19:37,580 --> 01:19:34,230
we're going to incorporate those into

1824
01:19:40,550 --> 01:19:37,590
our worldview and it strikes me that we

1825
01:19:42,860 --> 01:19:40,560
really haven't done that we've put these

1826
01:19:45,140 --> 01:19:42,870
people off in a subculture and we call

1827
01:19:47,780 --> 01:19:45,150
them the UFO community and we can want

1828
01:19:50,570 --> 01:19:47,790
to just ignore everything that they're

1829
01:19:53,990 --> 01:19:50,580
doing it's just amazing to me how much

1830
01:19:56,450 --> 01:19:54,000
we've compartmentalized the whole UFO

1831
01:19:59,330 --> 01:19:56,460
phenomena particularly from folks like

1832
01:20:02,090 --> 01:19:59,340
us if you will who are interested in

1833
01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:02,100
consciousness research so that's a huge

1834
01:20:07,570 --> 01:20:04,170
question and that would be question

1835
01:20:11,060 --> 01:20:07,580
number one in question number two is is

1836
01:20:13,729 --> 01:20:11,070
equally big and far-reaching and that's

1837
01:20:16,370 --> 01:20:13,739
what do you think is the relationship

1838
01:20:19,180 --> 01:20:16,380
between this form of consciousness that

1839
01:20:23,030 --> 01:20:19,190
these contactees are encountering and

1840
01:20:24,860 --> 01:20:23,040
the other forms of extended

1841
01:20:27,380 --> 01:20:24,870
consciousness that we've looked at on

1842
01:20:29,770 --> 01:20:27,390
this show be it near-death experience

1843
01:20:32,270 --> 01:20:29,780
out-of-body experience remote viewing

1844
01:20:35,390 --> 01:20:32,280
psychedelics the list goes on and on

1845
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:35,400
what is your best guess as to what the

1846
01:20:41,180 --> 01:20:38,010
connection is those are some pretty big

1847
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:41,190
questions I can't imagine that we're

1848
01:20:47,150 --> 01:20:44,130
going to get very far in really figuring

1849
01:20:49,850 --> 01:20:47,160
it out but I'd love to get your starting

1850
01:20:52,310 --> 01:20:49,860
position if you will on that topic and

1851
01:20:55,100 --> 01:20:52,320
it's a topic that I certainly hope to

1852
01:20:56,090 --> 01:20:55,110
delve into more and more in future

1853
01:20:58,040 --> 01:20:56,100
episodes

1854
01:21:00,110 --> 01:20:58,050
so again if you'd like to connect with

1855
01:21:02,630 --> 01:21:00,120
me and talk about that discuss those

1856
01:21:04,790 --> 01:21:02,640
questions or any others the place to do

1857
01:21:10,070 --> 01:21:04,800
that is through The Skeptical website at

1858
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:10,080
ske pti koat.com you'll find our forum

1859
01:21:13,790 --> 01:21:12,210
through there and you'll also find the

1860
01:21:15,770 --> 01:21:13,800
comments section of our website where

1861
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:15,780
you can directly write a note while

1862
01:21:20,510 --> 01:21:17,610
you're at The Skeptical website be sure

1863
01:21:22,970 --> 01:21:20,520
to check out our almost 200 previous

1864
01:21:25,100 --> 01:21:22,980
interviews on a range of topics related

1865
01:21:27,950 --> 01:21:25,110
to these kind of big-picture questions

1866
01:21:29,930 --> 01:21:27,960
that we find ourselves diving into well

1867
01:21:31,430 --> 01:21:29,940
that's gonna do it for today it's been a

1868
01:21:33,380 --> 01:21:31,440
long show but one that I'm really

1869
01:21:35,810 --> 01:21:33,390
grateful to have done

1870
01:21:37,790 --> 01:21:35,820
it's been a very meaningful little step

1871
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:37,800
for me along the path to begin to

1872
01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:40,170
explore this topic I hope you're

1873
01:21:45,860 --> 01:21:43,170
enjoying it to stick around much more to